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Author Topic: Timingbelt change and problems... help wanted  (Read 9833 times)
Blom
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« on: August 15, 2007, 07:42:42 pm »

Hi everyone, I have just had the full service done on our Grand Espace 3.0 V6 24V, where the timingbelt and everything else were changed, now when the engine were accessible.

But, after we got our car back from the garage, ive discovered some issues that I need your experts to help me with.

There are a high pitched tone coming from the engine when we drive normal and reaches 90km exactly, if I then pushes the speed to 95km and releases the pedal, the high tone changes to a lover, if I then pushes the pedal and the speed goes up, the high tone follows. Ive now done some test driving and found out the following pattern.

If im driving in the following gears, the sound appears at a certain speed.

1.gear the high tone is coming at 40km
2.gear the high tone is coming at 70km
3.gear the high tone is coming at 80km
D.gear the high tone is coming at 90km

If I put the gear in either P or N, the high tone comes with really high RPM.

Ive told the garage/workshop about the high sound/tone, and they heard it themselves but told me that the tone comes from the automaticgearbox, but didnt clearify it more than that, so I need some professionel help on this.

Thanks

Blom
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 08:21:47 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 09:39:19 pm »

Blom and I have been communicating about this problem over e-mail, and besides wondering how a garage having just charged a fortune for doing a timing belt change does not offer to fix a simple problem, it also made me think of my old Espace JE0A with the 2 litre engine.



I had my usual garage change the belt, it made a lot of noise but I didn't think of it. 11 months later, the above happened. Result was fortunately only 5 bent valves, which was fixed being still under warranty by the belt manufacturer. It may have been a problem in manufacturing, or it could have been that the belt was overtightened. It was, that's where the whining noise came from, but that may not have been the full cause of the problem.

- Anders
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 09:47:20 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 11:23:57 am »

I had a chance to listen to Blom's car yesterday. What a nice car! Cheesy

And good news is that there's certainly no tensioning problem at the belt at all - no sound from there except usual belt noise, and that's at any RPM. Besides, further investigations by Blom indicates that the source of the sound is more likely to be transmission rather than the engine. His garage will do further investigations this week, so lets hope they get more info.

It's a slightly confusing story, but Blom is doing the right thing: Insisting that the problem should be fixed!

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Blom
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2007, 07:40:06 pm »

Hi

Yes, thanks for the "ears", allways nice to have a second opinion on things, especially hard to diagnose car issues.

Well, the garage found the culprit, at least we thought so, but it turned out to be one of two noises we were facing. The noise they located for now came from the generator, they replaced it and the silence in the cabin we were used to is now back. But the high tone coming when we drive and reaches 90-95 km is still there. The garage is convinced that it comes from the automatic gearbox. in danish (Kronlejet) Still I need some suggestions, what it could be.

Thanks
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roy4matra
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 08:31:44 pm »

... The garage is convinced that it comes from the automatic gearbox. in danish (Kronlejet) Still I need some suggestions, what it could be.

Any suggestion is going to be pure speculation I'm afraid.  As a professional, and having been an RTE with Renault for over five years; and having been trained to diagnose, strip and overhaul auto gearboxes in the past, even I wouldn't hazard a guess even if I'd heard it.  The first problem is that main dealers and garages no longer strip and overhaul major items anymore - the labour is too expensive and they often don't have the facilities.  An auto box like this requires clinically clean conditions, and I have not seen many garages with that sort of clean room for doing these type overhauls!  When a major component has an internal fault, they are simply replaced.  So this means two things - you never get to see the internals, see how they are designed and assembled, or find out what tends to fail, and why.  So you do not gain any experience.

I have to say that Renault auto gearboxes are not the most reliable from my 35+ years of experience.  The auto in your Espace is the transverse version of the unit used in BMW's and other cars and they had problems with them too.  A whine is usually caused by things like bearings failing.  The internals of an auto box are mostly multi-plate clutches, epicyclic gear trains and bearings, along with all the various valves and controls.  If the multi-plate clutches start to slip you will soon know about it.  If the oil pressure starts playing up you will know about it.

As for the whine or noise, what good will it do you if you did know what is causing it?  You cannot do anything about it.  You cannot strip and repair it - even I would not be able to and I think I have more experience and a better set of tools than most people, no offence intended.

You are going to have to either 1) live with it;  2) decide to change it;  or  3) change the vehicle.
If it is the precursor to a major problem or failure then you will have to do some thing eventually anyway.  Why worry about something you cannot control until the time comes you have to take some action?

Roy
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Blom
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2007, 08:42:57 pm »

Hi Roy

Thanks for your reply :-) Well, right now we are trying to locate the sound. The problem is that the sound werent there when we handed over the car for the timingbelt change, and after we got it back, the noise were there. So offcourse we would like to have a 100% diagnose. Well, we are all different in nature, and Im one of those that like to know whats causing things like this, no matter if I can do something about it or not.. Allso, the price we are paying for the time spend, with the timingbelt amongst other, we definately would like to have that part justified.. Finding the cause to a problem/sound that werent there when we handed over the car, but is there after we get it back is the right thing to do. If it turns out that we have to live with it, then we will descide what to do then.

Blom
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2007, 09:59:27 pm »

I have to say that Renault auto gearboxes are not the most reliable from my 35+ years of experience.  The auto in your Espace is the transverse version of the unit used in BMW's and other cars and they had problems with them too.

The gearbox is a ZF 4HP20, same unit used on Peugeots, Citroens (with same engine) and Mercedes Vito (different engine). I happen to have an auto gearbox specialist in the neighborhood ("Mr. Transmission", Blom we talked about him the other day), and I have had him check my gearbox and change oil on it. He was very worried when I showed up with my new Espace, but his expression changed completely when he got down on his knees under the car and recognised it. "ZF 4HP20" he almost shouted, "that's a good gearbox, it will last 400.000 km!". He did remember to have had a salesmans Peugeot 406 that needed a complete restoration, but he thought that was down to the way this particular car was driven.

This garage is part of a professional gearbox restoration company located in another part of the town.

Is the garage willing to e.g. replace the gearbox oil?
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Blom
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2007, 04:27:03 pm »

Hi Anders

Yes, they are changing the gearbox oil, at least the 4-5 litres that can be changes, and perhaps send the oil to a specialist for analysis. Another thing is that I were told from the garage, that its not the generator thats making the noise, its the wheels holding the belt, that drives the generator thats giving one of the whining tones... The other loud tone coming at 90-95 km they are still trying to locate, but having a hard time finding, but ill let you know when something comes up...

Blom
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roy4matra
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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2007, 03:08:16 pm »

Well, right now we are trying to locate the sound. The problem is that the sound werent there when we handed over the car for the timing belt change, and after we got it back, the noise were there. So off course we would like to have a 100% diagnose.

As I said, if the noise is inside the gearbox, you will not get a 100% diagnosis, it's impossible.  It can only be a guess at best.  If the engine and gearbox was taken out to do the timing belt, but the gearbox was not touched, then it is unlikely that simply removing it and putting it back has caused a problem.

What you should consider is that if the powertrain has been out, it has had a major disturbance.  All mechanical components make noises, but often these are damped so that you don't hear them or not very loudly.  When the engine was put back it is unlikely that the mountings or fittings are exactly as they were.  Something may now be transmitting a noise that was there before but never noticed.

So check mountings, and fittings for touching.  Maybe slacken mountings and re-tighten so they can re-seat and possibly the sound may change.

Roy
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Blom
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2007, 10:38:16 am »

Hi Roy

Yes your right, the whole timingbelt and the changes done to the car, could definately cause a huge disturbance to the car/sounds in it. But then again, that might not be the problem or the cause of the sound, so therefore the garage is still trying to locate the sound, actually I think, they are more interested finding the cause, than just trying this and that... They accepted that the noice werent normal, and that it didnt were there before when we first handed over the car, so now they are trying to locate the source... Im still waiting for a final answer, but will keep you posted on this.

When a timingbelt is changed, do they allso change the wheels running when the belt driving the generator is in speed?

Blom
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roy4matra
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2007, 01:27:55 pm »

Hi Roy
When a timingbelt is changed, do they allso change the wheels running when the belt driving the generator is in speed?

Yes they should Blom.  The timing belt comes as a kit with all the parts, including the idler pulleys.  It's always possible for a new bearing to be faulty of course, as with any part in fact.  Ask Lennart about a new coil he once bought! :-)  Using a stethoscope they should be able to locate the noise more accurately, because noises can sound as if they are from one point but they actually come from somewhere else.

Roy
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 02:25:13 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Blom
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2007, 04:18:53 pm »

Hi Roy

They are trying to listen with a stethoscope on request by me, but right now I havent gotten the feedback about that. Allso, they will try and speed up the car, liftet from the ground and see if the sound comes in the cabin. Off course it can be difficult to hear, now when the friction from the tires arent there, but they will in this situation listen with a stethoscope to see if the noise comes from the automatic gearbox.

Thanks
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Blom
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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2007, 08:00:35 pm »

Hi again...

Well, a small update... The garage told me today, that the wheel making the noise isnt part of whats beeing changed when timingbelt is due. ?? That makes me wonder... Its not part of the timingbelt kit, but its relevant to check on these things when the engine is available for maintnance right?

Another thing, is that they now today told me for sure that the sound we hear when driving 90-95 km is coming from the automatic gearbox... This is just a very unlikely coinsidense for this sound to come by itself after a huge makeover.. (timingbelt change) so, I told the garage that I would have a automatic gearbox specialist to come with his verdict on this. Read: I dont believe what they tell me, I will have to have a second opinion on this. When I talked with the automatic gearbox specialist, he told me, that its very unlikely that the sound should come from where they say it comas from, in danish its called i think (kronos topleje) He said, that these automatic gearboxes very seldom makes any noises, so this were 99.99% unlikely, but I scheduled a meeting with him later this week, and then we will see.

My idea is that the garage, wont put the time nor the energy in this, they simply try to cut me off with a bad excuse, so I have to find out. If the specialist tells me thats the gearbox, then ill take it from there on.

Blom
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2007, 10:28:07 pm »

Hi again...

Well, a small update... The garage told me today, that the wheel making the noise isnt part of whats beeing changed when timingbelt is due. ?? That makes me wonder... Its not part of the timingbelt kit, but its relevant to check on these things when the engine is available for maintnance right?

If it was the alternator as you mentioed previously, that was the source of the hissing sound from the belt we heard last weekend, then it makes sense not to fix this when the timing belt is done. First the sound wasn't bad so you probably didn't notice before the engine was removed from the car, and as long as the engine isn't running, a worn bearing in the alternator can't be detected. Further, the alternator is accessible with the engine still fitted, so it makes little sense to do a preventive replacement. Unlike the water pump, obviously.

About the gearbox: You are doing the right thing to have the gearbox checked by a specialist. Even if the garage happens to be correct. Even if you have to accept the sound, you must know where it comes from.

Quote
My idea is that the garage, wont put the time nor the energy in this, they simply try to cut me off with a bad excuse, so I have to find out. If the specialist tells me thats the gearbox, then ill take it from there on.

That's a good strategy. It's really a bad start with an otherwise wonderful car!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 10:32:09 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Blom
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 07:07:41 pm »

Okay, latest news is that ive picked up the car today, and after well... cant count them anylonger, garage visits they left me today with our car still unfixed with the brakes, they have been changed when the timingbelt were changed, and afterwards they make a high metallic sound. If the brake plates are genuine as are the breake pads they shouldnt sound like that.. The sound isnt only there when stepping slightly on the brake pedal, but it comes and goes... often when we drive in left turns...

Well ill keep you posted on this :-)

We love the car and whats wrong isnt something that cant be fixed, and it will :-)

Thanks
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