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Author Topic: No Hot Air  (Read 10892 times)
ross
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Posts: 98


« on: October 26, 2007, 12:50:53 pm »

I drive a 2.2Dt Grand Espace which was manufactured in 2000(W reg)
I went on a bit of a trip yesterday, 500 miles, ( 800Km for our European friends), and I could not get any warm air from the Heater System.
The wife tried the controls on her side and it was the same.
The Fans work OK and all the contol lights on the Heater Panel are functioning correctly.
The Engine temperature is normal, and when I checked the water level this morning, after it had time to cool down, it was correct.
I haven't had time as yet to check to see if there are any fuses involved in the heater system that might have blown.
It seems a bit strange as I thought that the Heater System was separate for the Driver and Passenger sides, but both seem not to be working.
Any suggestions Boys and Girls.
Regards
Ross
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2005 Grande Espace 2.2DCi
1994 2.1Td Espace
2005 Kangoo 1.2
1977 Renault 16TL
1974 Renault 16TX
roy4matra
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2007, 01:02:16 am »

... It seems a bit strange as I thought that the Heater System was separate for the Driver and Passenger sides, but both seem not to be working.

The heating system is separate in so far as there are two heater matricies - one either side and the passenger can override the drivers/master control settings to some extent.  However, the coolant flow through both matricies comes from, and returns to the engine through the same hoses.  They have tee junctions to take the coolant to and from each matrix.  So if both matrix could not provide any heat, it suggests there was no flow from the engine or the return was blocked.  Easiest thing to check is the pipes/hoses under the bonnet, going to the matricies.  When the engine is hot, these heater pipes/hoses should also be hot.  Check them by hand - they should all be the same.  If they are not, then either the flow is blocked or there is insufficient coolant to flow through them.  Since the matricies are the highest point in the cooling system, you could have enough coolant for engine cooling but air near the top giving poor heating.

Diesels, particularly the common rail diesels, take a long while to start heating the interior since they use their own heat to run.  This was why Renault added the additional coolant heating systems (glow-plugs in the coolant jacket and the 'night heater' down in the front left corner).  These are to help provide heat inside more quickly.  If it was a cold day, these should have been activated until the engine warmed sufficiently.  However, a run of 500 miles would be much more than enough to have given reasonable heating inside, so I think you need to check those pipes/hoses first.

Roy
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ross
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Posts: 98


« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2007, 08:46:14 pm »

once again, many thanks for your reply to my cry for help Roy.

Since first posting the appeal for help I have twice checked the system.

The first time I couldn't remove the Radiator, due to insufficient clearance between the intecooler mainifold pipe, so I flushed the system, as best I could with a hose, and put it all back together and refilled it with the inclusion of some RAD-FLUSH.

After a week of running around locally with the RAD-FLUSH in the system I once again took the system apart and flushed it out with a hose, and also checked the operation of the thermostat, which was fine.

This time I was able to remove the intercooler manifold pipe, so I could remove the radiator and flush it through, again with a hose.

The reason I thought I needed to remove the radiator to flush it is, the hose connections are both at the top of the radiator, so I needed to invert it to get the sediment to run out.

I again flushed the system, this time through the header tank, and the water runs out clean.

With the system all reconnected I refilled the system, using a large diameter length of tube attached to the header tank inlet , to give a head of water, and then I opened the bleed valves, starting with the heater ones, and working forward to the radiator.

The system seems to work fine, with the exception of warm air from the vents.

I can feel warmth from all the heater pipework, right up to the matirix's under the dash where they dissappear into the boxes, but still there is no warm air from the vents.

It is most frustrating !

Is it possible that there is air entrapped within the heater matrix's that will not come out under normal bleeding, but needs additional pressure applied ?

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Regards

Ross
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2005 Grande Espace 2.2DCi
1994 2.1Td Espace
2005 Kangoo 1.2
1977 Renault 16TL
1974 Renault 16TX
roy4matra
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Posts: 873



« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 02:16:52 pm »

I can feel warmth from all the heater pipework, right up to the matirix's under the dash where they dissappear into the boxes, but still there is no warm air from the vents.

It is most frustrating !

Is it possible that there is air entrapped within the heater matrix's that will not come out under normal bleeding, but needs additional pressure applied ?

No Ross, it's unlikely it's anything to do with the coolant side, now you have pointed out that the cooling system has been flushed and you have hot water up to the matricies.  This was obviously the first thing that needed to be verified, but now that you have, it sounds like the flaps are not working correctly.

Modern heating systems have hot coolant passing through the matrix all the time and heat regulation to the cabin is done by altering the airflow path.  Old systems simply shut off the coolant from the matrix to give cool air inside (which was still passing through the matrix, but since it had no coolant going through it, it was cold).

Modern systems alter the positions of the flaps to route the air either fully through the matrix for hot, or by-passing the matrix for cold, or blending part hot and cold for anything in between.  So it sounds like your flaps are in the cool or cold position and not functioning.  You are going to have to check out whether this is a mechanical problem (flap or control broken or jammed) or electrical (signal to the control not correct).  I suspect you have an electrical control or signal fault.

Roy
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ross
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Posts: 98


« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 08:24:28 pm »

Hi Roy,

I was beginning to think along the same lines as yourself, as it seemed unlikely that both matrix's would be blocked.

I have been looking through the online Espace manual but there seems to be little or nothing to help me find the source of any contol flap problem.

It would need to be in a part of the ducting that is common to both sides of the car, as both the driver and passenger controls do not give any warm air.

I will stick my head under the dash as soon as I get a spare minute, but with a childrens' birthday weekend approaching, and a new kitchen to finish off fitting, it might be a little while before I can do it.

Many thanks for your help and interest.

P.S. my central locking problem is still with me, but I have seen a few newish Espaces for spares on Ebay; if I got hold of a set of bits for the central locking system, ie, matching computer, dashboard and keys, do you think I can do a complete swap to get it to work ?

Regards

Ross
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2005 Grande Espace 2.2DCi
1994 2.1Td Espace
2005 Kangoo 1.2
1977 Renault 16TL
1974 Renault 16TX
roa
Jr. Member
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Posts: 30


« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2007, 05:54:51 pm »

Have you tried the reset-procedure for the ventilation-computer?
-push and hold two(dont remember which two right now -will check) while turning on the ignition. Works like Ctrl-Alt-del on your pc.
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roa
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Posts: 30


« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2007, 10:11:17 pm »

-seems like the word 'buttons' went missing...
Anyway, I've attached a decription of the procedure.
Let us know if this helps.
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ross
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Posts: 98


« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2007, 06:37:03 pm »

Gentlemen,

I have now used the instructions, provided by Roa, for which many thanks, and the heating and ventilation computer checked out OK.

I am very nearly certain that both of the heater matrix's are blocked, and that the hot water is only passing through the header of each matrix.

I am led top believe that the task of replacing the heater matrix is not for the faint hearted.

Has anyone undertaken this task ?, if so, are there any hints or instructions I can follow, when I can find the time to tackle it.

I am of a mind to take the engine out in order to gain access to the heater pipe connections at the back of the engine compartment.

Many thanks for the help so far.

Regards

Ross
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2005 Grande Espace 2.2DCi
1994 2.1Td Espace
2005 Kangoo 1.2
1977 Renault 16TL
1974 Renault 16TX
roa
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 30


« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 10:28:52 am »

Removing heater matrix's is a large job indeed. Renault shops calculate approx betwwen 4 and 7 hours for changing one matrix, depending on which type you have(sealed or replaceable ).  You'll have to remove most of the dash-fascia on both sides to get to either one, so it makes sense to replace both anyway, when first diassembling.
When the fascia is removed, the steel-beam, on which the whole dash is attached, has to be loosened, and pulled back 5 to 10 cm's, to gain access to the pipes. The Matrixes are then removed sideways, through the doors.
See some pictures here:
http://je.espace-freunde.de/jeinfo/espace98/2002.11.10.wasser.im.fussraum/inhalt.html

-This description is based on reading only - I've NOT done this job myself......

Good luck!
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Martin Tyas
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Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2007, 03:20:08 pm »

I know that you have flushed the cooling system Ross but have you tried actually connecting a hose pipe to the heater pipes so that you have more pressure than just the head of water in the expansion tank?
I've done this before (not with the Espace but another car) by disconnecting the outlet and inlet pipes to the heater matrix within the engine compartment and then connecting my hose pipe to the outlet pipe  using a short length of 15mm copper pipe and a couple of jubilee/hose clips. By blasting water under pressure into the outlet side you are reverse flushing which should have more chance of dislodging any blockage.

Failing that and it does need removal of the matrices then I've attached a copy of the relevant technical note which may hopefully help in addition to the info on espace-freunde.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
roy4matra
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2007, 01:56:20 am »

Gentlemen,

I have now used the instructions, provided by Roa, for which many thanks, and the heating and ventilation computer checked out OK.

I am very nearly certain that both of the heater matrix's are blocked, and that the hot water is only passing through the header of each matrix.

I am led top believe that the task of replacing the heater matrix is not for the faint hearted.

If indeed your matrix are blocked and need replacing, you have a problem.  You need to strip the dash and pull the whole assembly back and there is a special tool for this as you slide the dash back and up along the rods of the tool, to gain access.  This is not really a DIY job.

Quote
Has anyone undertaken this task?

Yes, which is why I say it is not a DIY job.  Without the special tools it will be extremely difficult if not impossible, and you would be likely to damage something.  It is a horrible job even with the tools!

Quote
I am of a mind to take the engine out in order to gain access to the heater pipe connections at the back of the engine compartment.

That is overkill (removing engine) and not necessary really, but that still won't help with the major work inside the vehicle.  Also do you realise how much work is involved removing the engine?

Roy
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renaultbiler
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Posts: 418



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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2007, 08:11:34 am »

I did this on a 98 JE0A and for my first time this was 8 hours from start to finish (finding all those interiour screws..).
Make sure you get new heater matrixes that are splitted (the tubes is separate from the matrix)or else you will need to dismantle A LOT to put them in (ref earlier posts). Your old ones is probably not splitted but just cut off the pipes with a small saw to pull out the old matrixes, then pull out the old pipes.

You need to pull off the connections in the engine compartment and these can be tricky especially on one of the diesel versions (inaccessible on one side without special tools). Advantage with tool MOT 1395 anyhow.

Then you need to dismantle all interiour dash-covers upto the cover where climate controls are fitted (dont dismantle the climate controls and cover but all below)
- Steering wheel columt covers
- Centre storage room lid
- side covers both sides (where air is distributed to the doors)
- Cover below steeringwheel (where the light regulator for cluster is)
- Passenger airbag cover needs to be tilted up (do not disconnect the strap, just flip open)
- cover in front of steering wheel (where autobox gear-indicator is on autobox models)
- the sceleton found under the above cover
- ashtray (if fitted)
- Centre storage room must completely out (its a bitch, 2 hidden screws under the filt)
- The complete pedal assembly must out (cut open the sound insolation to find 4 nuts)
- Steering column lower joint OFF engine side (take up the rubber cover from inside the car) and tilt into the car compartment (lock steeringwheel to prevent exessiveturning and following damage to the airbag wiring ring below steeringwheel)

Pull out the old matrixes and pipes, replace with new splitted matrix. Insert the pipes with O-rings first, then insert matrix -and gently connect matrix with pipes. Flush cooling system before reconnecting the new matrixes. Check that the new matrixes and its pipes (O-rings) are sealed ok before refitting everything (fill system and run the car).
Watch out for the brake switch as it can slide forward in its mounting causing brake lights always on.

This time the old matrixes was blocked with brown muddy greasy shit (cut them open to have a look) causing near to 0 circulation! Heating superb after replacing new ones.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2007, 12:59:27 pm by renaultbiler » Logged

1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
ross
Full Member
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Posts: 98


« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 09:28:06 pm »

Many thanks for your insructions, renaultbiler, which I will keep handy for when I get the time to tackle the job.
I am waiting for better weather, as I have to work out in the open, as my garage is too small for my Espace.
the weather here is not quite as severe as in Norway, but we still miss the heater.
Has anyone ever thought of cutting through the heater box, to enable the matrix to be pulled out towards the seats, after releasing the header screws or the pipes ?
Is the matrix just pushed into the heater box or is it held in by any screws ?
I have thought that with a jig-saw it might be possible to cut a slot, the width of the matrix, which would allow the matrix to be extracted into the footwell.
When the new matrix has been installed the cutout in the heater box can be sealed up with the flap that was removed, or some strong black tape, as it is only warm air inside the box.
Does anyone have any views on my cunning plan ?
Regards
Ross
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2005 Grande Espace 2.2DCi
1994 2.1Td Espace
2005 Kangoo 1.2
1977 Renault 16TL
1974 Renault 16TX
renaultbiler
Sr. Member
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Posts: 418



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« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2008, 12:06:46 am »

I would steer clear of any cutting - i think the fanbox is a bit more complicated as there is  more channels below the heater matrix (or it looks like so). If you put a couple of days on this job you should be fine on the dismantling instead - much better way for both the car and the result.

You could start with the pipes in the engine room to see if you can get them off or if you need to pick up the special tool. Laser Tool have made this pipe-releaser (replika) and is available for 15-20£ (ebay).

The interiour job is ok. Just note there is a hidden torx under a cover on the radio steering-wheel remote (tilt up the inner part of the remote). You dont need to take off the steering wheel.

The matrixes are fixed with 2 philips screws - easily accessable, you can see them both in the front of the matrix.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
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