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Author Topic: Espace JE0 Clutch pedal sticking halfway.  (Read 12245 times)
Sparky
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« on: December 18, 2007, 12:55:19 am »

The Race has now covered 36K miles and the clutch pedal is now sticking halfway after actuating. It is possible to raise it back up by placing your foot beneath the pedal. Apparently it is caused by fluid passing by a seal on the clutch cylinder mounted on the gearbox.

Is this a common failing as I have found out that the Renault Technicians seem to know about it and offer a modified clutch cylinder parts to correct the fault

Regards Sparky
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Drives:
Renault Grand Espace III 2.2Dci The Race
Renault SL29 Trafic 1.9Dci, Citroen XM 2.1TD Break
BMW's K1200LT, R1100GS & R65
David M.
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2007, 05:44:41 pm »

 Hello Sparky
                       We have just started to have the same problem with our 2000
2.2td, after the clutch pedal is raised it sticks slightly at about half way then pops back to the top, when it happens it is almost impossible to get the car in gear reverse being the worst. Do not know if it is just a coincedence but it seems worse when the weather is very cold. Thanks for the post as I now know what to look for, had fears the gearbox was on it's last legs.
   Thanks David M.
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Driving 2000 Grand espace 2.2 dti.
Fiat Doblo cargo
george
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2007, 10:06:50 am »

About a year ago I had a soggy clutch pedal problem on my 1998 2.2 DT.
There was air in the clutch slave cyl half of the system.
You can only purchase the clutch slave cyl and master cyl as a pair as they are sealed units and also cost a furtune.
The pipe that connects the slave and master has a dry break joint.
What I did was to remove the slave cyl, tape a small funnel to the dry break joint and fill the funnel with fluid.
With a small screwdriver it is possible to open the valve on the dry break joint, and working the plunger on the slave cyl to bleed out the air.
12 months on it is still perfect.
That said, a few weeks ago as the cold weather started the cluth pedal started sticking down slightly.
That turned out to be lack of lubrication on the clutch pedal pivot on the pedal box.
A squirt of WD 40 and normal service was resumed.
George.
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David M.
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2007, 08:50:14 pm »

Hi all
       Oh no here we go again another simple job made expensive by Renault, why can you never just buy the part you need instead you have to buy all the bells and whistles that go with it. Had the same problem with the gear selector cable, phoned main dealer thinking how much can a cable cost? Answer £300.00 inc vat. Had to buy complete asembly, gear stick connection box underneath it and both cables. I am sorry to say that i am losing faith in a otherwise good car.
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Driving 2000 Grand espace 2.2 dti.
Fiat Doblo cargo
Sparky
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Posts: 37



« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2008, 02:13:46 am »

Thanks folks for your replies,
 I've been looking at the www. and found  the results quite surprising, with some folks having the work done under warranty and others being fobbed off with other stories, ( some on their 3rd Clutch hydraulics and others being told "it's the clutch that has gone").
  I will be looking at going along George's route and see if I can refill the Slave cylinder as there seems to be no fluid loss at either end of this system, IE; wet carpets etc. So I presume it might be just a small amount of air in the system that has worked its way through.  What would be ideal would be a spare Dry break connector to enable the refilling a little easier.
 Looking at the Renault Technical manual they have changed the route and placing of the Master cylinder several times over the last couple of years even Renault are lost with the Parallelogram of levers actuating the Master cylinder and only show the Main piston acting upon the clutch pedal directly. Any how I'll see how I progress (weather permitting), and report in due course.
 Eurocarparts offer a kit (Master and Slave Cylinders) but are only slightly cheaper than Renault.  You would think with it being a common failing the aftermarket boys would be hot on the case as it affects a lot of the Renault range.

Cheers for now and looking for a Happy New Year for us all

Sparky
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Drives:
Renault Grand Espace III 2.2Dci The Race
Renault SL29 Trafic 1.9Dci, Citroen XM 2.1TD Break
BMW's K1200LT, R1100GS & R65
roy4matra
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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2008, 11:51:54 pm »

I will be looking at going along George's route and see if I can refill the Slave cylinder as there seems to be no fluid loss at either end of this system...

Attempting to fill a sealed system that hasn't leaked is asking for trouble.

The problem here has nothing to do with leaks.  It is quite common on both left and right hand drive Espace 3 and results from the seal in the master cylinder jamming in the bore.  The only real solution is to change the master cylinder and since it is sealed and only comes as a complete system, it is unfortunately expensive and time consuming.  You have to strip most of the dash to fit it, particularly the reservoir which ends up hidden behind the dash!  I have done these a number of times so I know all about them unfortunately...  We have another two in the workshop at this moment!

The system on the RHD Espace is unusual but is a consequence of the car being designed LHD and the conversion is just that - an aftermarket conversion that is made to fit as cheaply as possible.  I see this so many times with cars now, no matter who is the manufacturer.  Some are better than others but the LHD is usually better as that was the way they were designed.

In this particular instance even the LHD one is not a nice job to change but for a different reason.  You don't have to remove any dash, but you do have to drain and disconnect the cooling system as well as the brakes since you have to remove the servo!

Roy
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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 12:04:06 am »

In this particular instance even the LHD one is not a nice job

Yup - my car proved that for you, didn't it ? :-)

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
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george
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 12:42:37 am »

Sorry Roy but my repair is still good after 12 months an around 15,000 miles.
The dry break joint was released.
Then slight pressure applied to the clutch pedal which was solid indicating no air in the master cylinder half of the system.
When the slave cyl was removed the piston in the slave was as soggy as hell indicating air in that half of the circuit.
Slave bled and problem solved.
When it is your own car and it is you footing the bill you do find ways of repairing insted of just fitting new parts, as fitters do.
George.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2008, 03:25:57 pm »

Sorry Roy but my repair is still good after 12 months an around 15,000 miles.

Great, I'm glad for you that it has worked.  However, your original fault was obviously not the normal master cylinder fault.  As you say George, the slave cylinder was 'soggy' and appeared to have air in that section.  Two things come from that 1) how did the air get in, and 2) if it got in once it can do it again, so it may happen again.

If Sparky's problem is with the master cylinder, as is the usual fault, doing what you did will not cure it, which is why I issued the warning.  Also not all people are as competent at DIY repairs as you obviously are, and can end up making things worse.  I've seen the results so many times in my job, and it ends up costing them more in the long run.

Quote
When it is your own car and it is you footing the bill you do find ways of repairing insted of just fitting new parts, as fitters do.

A fitter is just that - he fits things he is told to.  He does not diagnose anything, he follows orders.

A mechanic is expected to diagnose mechanical problems as well as putting them right.

A technician is someone who can diagnose both mechanical and electrical problems and put them right.

I point these things out because people often use the wrong terminology.  If anyone employs a fitter (who is the lowest paid) and expects them to diagnose problems and put things right, they will end up with problems as they are neither trained for that or possibly competent enough to do it.  Sometimes garages do this which is one reason the customer does not get the work he expects, and I give no excuses for that.  It is one reason I have always said we should have more control and people only allowed to do the work if they have certificates to prove they are competent.

Mechanics fit new parts for two main reasons - labour costs usually are so high relative to fitting new parts that the customers would end up paying more if they tried to repair things like this, so the customer is given the cheaper option.  Second, since the manufacturer does not approve or often supply repair kits, tools, or give any information how to carry out a repair, their instructions are only to replace items, and if the garage is a manufacturer owned or licensed dealer he is not allowed to do otherwise.

The problem here is legislation and/or legal liability, especially now with so much litigation.

And finally, since you cannot tell how long a repair might last, and the garage would be liable for doing it all again at no cost to the customer, if it failed within maybe a year, the garage will not take that chance.  The second time it might require additional parts because the 'temporary' repair simply delayed the point of total failure - so the garage now becomes liable for more than the original problem...  No-one is going to take that chance.

So whilst I understand your point, if you do the repair yourself and it works, great, but if it failed again soon afterwards you simply accept it, whilst a business has to look at it in a different light, and you cannot blame a mechanic for a policy out of his control.

Roy
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Sparky
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2008, 09:56:41 pm »

Thanks for your advice  Roy,

I've persevered and took my time on this one due to work commitments.

As I said before there was  No Leakage at either end of the system or at the dry break joint. so It was assumed that air was in the system.
I decided to check out the system and as George mentioned it is possible to refill the system by using a little ingenuity and a little principal called gravity all the air was expelled.  By now I'd stripped the dash lower areas to release the clutch pedal mounting which made testing the system easier, the clutch was found to be back in proper operation. This has now been tested over the last fortnight with no avail if anything a better feeling clutch. ( previously it was alittle Spongy). But as Roy says time will tell., and as I now have a good understanding of how the system is designed to operate as fitted I am prepared to act accordingly if the system happens to fail again.

Regards Bob
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Drives:
Renault Grand Espace III 2.2Dci The Race
Renault SL29 Trafic 1.9Dci, Citroen XM 2.1TD Break
BMW's K1200LT, R1100GS & R65
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