MatraSport Forum

Hi,

I have worked on the drive shafts for my HDI conversion today...

Seems like I have very limited space between my gearbox and trailing arm.

I know that the trailing arms on the 2.2 are different from my 1.6... the rear wheels are 20mm further apart, and depending on how my project works, the 10mm might be exactly what I'm looking for!

Does anyone have more information about the difference between the 1.6 and 2.2, mainly in regards to the trailing arms but also in general?
A picture of the two different trailing arms would be spot on  ;)

Also, if you would happen to have a set of trailing arms for a 2.2 I know someone who could be interested in buying  :P

On the gearbox side, the 5th gear housing is only some 5 mm from the trailing arm on the 2.2. On the engine side, it's primarily the oil pan that is sitting close. So the wider arms are certainly necessary on the 2.2. I'm pretty sure Matra didn't plan to have different trailing arms for the two cars, but the 2.2 had a difficult start as it wasn't the engine of choice initially. The original idea was to use the shorter Douvrin 4 cylinder engine which later showed up in the Espace, and I think that could have easily slideed in between the suspension components of the 1.6.

The chassis mount points for the trialing arms are identical on the 1.6 and the 2.2. The differences in the two chassis types are elsewhere, and are minor. So I don't think you would have any problem fitting 2.2 arms on your 1.6 chassis, but you would have to upgrade the brake discs to 2.2 as the calipers are fitted further out from the hub on the 2.2 to accomodate the larger discs. Strut and anti roll bar fixings could also have been used.

Is your power pack really that wide? :)

- Anders

Hi Anders,

Thanks for the info...

Yes I'm more than close on the gearbox side... 5th gear is actually above the trailing arm, and I think the arm might hit the gearbox when the spring is compressed...

I will take a few pictures tomorrow.

I have found a breakers yard in Germany that are supposed to have a 2.2 sitting around.
Asking price: 600 Euro... Anyone needs any other parts (engine, gearbox etc.)
Though the trailing arms should be in a bad condition, but I guess a bit of welding can fix most things  ;D

Count me in! I'm ready to split transport corsts too of course.


They usually are the first part to rust away on our dear cars. I have heard a few examples of people who have welded their arms :o  ;) with good results, but it isn't legal to do it. So it has to be done so it isn't noticed in MoT.

When i was doing the 1.9 conversion, i had the same problem. The end cap of the gearbox was above the treiling arm. I "fixed" it by raising the engine as high as possible, because i couldn't move the engine more to the right. 

If you can fix it by using 2.2 arms, do it. It's the best option.

Which hdi engine are you using?  Pictures? Pictures? Pictures? Pictures?

Hi,

Well I could maybe move the engine another 10mm to the right, but I would like to have just a little space on both sides...
The 2.2 trailing arms should be an easy fix to my problem.

Gearbox is allready sitting as high as possible (or nearly), also I will have problems with the angle of the left drive shaft is the gearbox is much higher...

Another thing... Can someone tell my the "correct" ride height at the rear?
I measured the two cars I got, from ground to the arch of the fender I have 645mm on my Yellow 1.6.
I believe this is slightly lowered, but looks rather nice, so I'm aiming for this height on my HDI (I'm installing adjustable Spax suspension).
At moment it's sitting at 680mm, but it will get somewhat heavier (no windscreen, doors, rear window aso) though it won't get even close to the 645mm no matter how heavy it get's...

Pictures later today  ;)

I had exactly the same problem with the trailingarm and gearbox. I placed the engine as high as possible, with the result that the driveshaft joints making a too big angle. Going around the corner i could hear and feel the joint being on (beyond) its limit of angle. i had to lower the engine to solve this, but then i had the problem that the trailing arm sometimes hit the gearbox.

(http://www.maztra.nl/bestanden/C120.JPG)

Also the new rubber gaiter only last for 2 years.

(http://www.maztra.nl/bestanden/C240.JPG)

The only way to do it right is to place the engine in such way that the driveshafts are as straight as possible. That means placing the engine lower as it is now. If you are not doing that, you will regret it every time you go around the corner.  So first make sure the driveshaft is straight, second make sure the trailing arm cannot touch the gearbox. I know one guy solved this by grinding a piece of the endcap of the gearbox and welded a new plate in to close it.

Have a look at the pictures on the 1900 section of my website
http://www.maztra.nl/C1900_inb.html (http://www.maztra.nl/C1900_inb.html)

Pictures? Pictures? Pictures? Pictures?

Hi Bart,

Yes I'm aware of the issues you have mentioned...
The drive shaft is going to be very close to horizontal when I have the mentioned ride height of 645mm (ground to arch of the rear wheel fender).

I'm going to have a problem with the gearbox/trailing arm clearance.
Looked into modifying the gearbox today, but there is pretty much nothing to gain by cutting and welding the gearbox cover!

I'm going to move the engine 5mm to the right and are searching for 2.2 trailing arms  :-\

A few pictures I made today with a borrowed camera:

(http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/3218/p1010073wt3.jpg)
Engine installed temporary  :)

(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8814/p1010074gk7.jpg)
Custom exhaust system (custom manifold, stainless flex pipe, HDI cat and Volvo backbox)  ;D

(http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1229/p1010075qp0.jpg)
Lower engine mount

(http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/7015/p1010076qx0.jpg)
Limited space on the gearbox side  ???

(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5566/p1010077so7.jpg)
Maybe a little to close  :o
Though nothing a bit of welding can't fix I'm sure, but don't tell anyone  :-X

(http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/4162/p1010079hz4.jpg)
Maybe the engine could get 5mm closer on the right hand side... as they say a gap is a gap  :P

(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6301/p1010080yj5.jpg)
Custom exhaust manifold... and yes my welding skills are getting better every day!

(http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5364/p1010081au2.jpg)
Anyone ever considered what their petrol tank looks like from the inside  8)

(http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/9704/p1010083hv9.jpg)
Engine out for roughly the 37th time... and probably another 22 to go  ;D
Looking to modify the gearbox cover to gain clearance, but it's closer than tight allready  :'(


Any donation for a digital camera would be highly appreciated  ;)

Mmmm, HDI in murena, i like it 8)

Some comments:
Your driveshafts are much straighter than i thought it would be. It seems ok to me.
The engine can be moved more to the right by cutting a piece of the "table" onwhich the right enginemount is sitting. That is a common thing to do when placing an other engine. See picture.
Is the lower engine mount strong enough? It looks like it can flex forward/backward.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/matramurena/C030.jpg)


Don't bring back the camera and keep the photo's coming!

Hi Bart,

Yes I also believe the drive shaft angle is fine, but still concerned about the trailing arm.

I know that I could make more room by cutting the engine mount on the chassis, but that's been my goal not to modify the chassis all the way along...
I wan't a conversion that can be taken back to orig., not that I will but I like it that way and also that will give me less problems at MOT I believe...

Modifying items like engine, gearbox and bolt on items like engine mounts, trailing arms, exhaust etc. are fine  :D

The lower engine mount is plenty strong I should think. From an engineering point of view that is.
It's only designed to take forces in one direction (holding the engine against rotation / torque)... not sure what you think is to weak, but it's very strong indeed made of 40mm pipe with 5mm wall thickness, also rather short.

I agree, your construction looks very sturdy, perhaps even too sturdy as you may end up deforming the chassis on the high torque levels you are aiming for. I wouldn't worry initially, though, but I think you should take some precise measurements of the chassis, so you can detect deformations before they become serious. The problem is that the vertical bar carrying the engine mount will be subject to torsional forces with your engine, instead of forces that are "straight on" as it was designed to take.

I think you should do a similar mounting on the gearboxside to outeven the torsionforce on the lower enginemount.

I have another torsionbar attached to the cylinderhead that's fixed to the front of the engine bay... Unfortunately it's not in the pictures, but it's attached approx. in the middle of the engine bay.

To be honest I'm not that worried about the forces going to the chassis... The car seems pretty strong, but I guess only time will tell how >300Nm of torque affects the chassis  ???

If it breaks you might see a HDI engine installation kit in the "for sale" section...

how do the manage to fit a alfa v6engine in a 1.6 and what kind of gearbox?

Oh my god! Diesel engine in Matra Murena  :-[ Phillipe Guedon is turning upside down in his grave  :-[

He might... but that will be of pure envy  ;)

Especially considering that the Diesels will probably be beating everybody at Le Mans from now on ;)

That is another catastrophe for true classic car lovers, just look on youtube on one of those videos of Matra on the circuit and listen that sound... that is better than good sex ;) and the sound of the engine is one thing of all which make it perfect.

Oh my god!  :o Nobody told me that he passed away ...  ::)

Good to have you back Michal (sorry to hear about your marital difficulties).

If Matra were still making sportscars they would have discovered turbo diesels long ago! My 5-cylinder, 20 valve ,2.4 Alfa jtd has 200 bhp and even makes a lovely noise!  Still hard to beat a high output petrol engine at full chat but at nearly £1.40/litre (Sterling not Euros) an everyday car for me needs to be getting at least 40mpg :(

He can ;) there is a lot of TDi, CDi, DTi, TDTi, D4Di, TDFu-ckDi, which are faster than my Murena, but Matra Passion is not about top speed, it's about feeling, enthusiasm, sound and awareness of all the history of 70ties and 80ties. When I sit into my Murena from my daily driver (Octavia II 2,0 TDi) and start the engine - WOW it's SOMETHING! Murena with black smoke from exhaust and knock-knock-knock engine is not a Matra for more...

But of course, everybody can do what he wants with his car - put there 2 gipsies into the engine bay to run absolutely ecologically  ;)

Diesels CAN be made to make a nice sound!.
Take my old "company" car for instance........had  37 litre V10 MTU engine...made a bloody AWESOME sound!.... ;D
Of cause it used 3½ litres/Km (with economical driving) so, its not what I'd recommend as a daily driver.;)

I'm laughing my a.... to pieces! :D
And I'm getting a strange picture in my mind of a carbon fibre bodied version of it roaring down the mulsanne straight on le mans! "Oups, was that the leading Audi, or just a speed bump?" ;D

Well, we can just wait till somebody will try to use it in Murena  :D :D :D

Don't take me for what I didn't say, Michal.

If you want to know it, here it is
I don't care about this experimentation and diesel versus fuel versus lpg versus biogaz that you will produce 
Driving daily a HDi (now 220.000 km) and knowing all the electricity ghost that can exist even with the standard circuit (just for the fun, when new, after driving 5 km my car refused to restart. It needed 3 changes of the camshaft position sensor before the issue was finaly solved ) I believe it's far from a good choice.
But it's the choice of the owner, which is doing a lot of work and decided not to cut into the chassis
And ... soon or later, turning to other power sources will be mandatory if we will want to use our Matras.

What I was about is that you pushed a bit too quickly somebody alive into his grave...

Hi Micael and Spyros,

I knew the HDI engine would make some people think that I'm ruining a great car...
To be honest I don't really care, I have my reasons and that's enough for me!

That being said I'm doing a conversion that can be taken back to original, as I see the Murena as a future classic  ;D

I want the car to be my daily drive, and the Murena is an interesting car that should be good for this (galvanized, simpel suspension aso), although the engine isn't up for the job in my opinion... Loud, low power and very unreliable!
The HDI is a very solid engine, and I don't share Spyros' opinion on the electrical circuit... Yes you need to know what you are working at, but these engines are easy to tune, very inexpensive and can be found easy used... also parts are very easy to pick up at breakers.

I guess to have 320Nm/140BHP that should be good for 200,000km without much attention.

I'm looking at my project as a way to make an interesting and great car even better for my specific use... And also I've allways enjoyed modifying things and prove people wrong when saying it can't be done!

By the way, managed to get a charge cooler in the UK at a fair price. It's beeing installed together with the engine now, so I don't have to do the air pipes twice...
It's orig. for a Ford Escort Cosworth Turbo and seems to fit the engine bay of the Murena perfect  ;)
I'll post some pictures later this week...

:-\
For 140 Pk and reliability you need to think about a 2.2 HDI.
But, have you heard about the damper puley issue ?
Have you heard about the "special clutch" ?
Have you heard about the EGR valve that is far from simple to disconnect without generating another electric alarm that will lock the engine. ?
Have you seen the tar that you can remove from this EGR valve that will strangle your admission ?
Have you heard about these marvlous exhaust that rust and snap at the welding (impossible to repair)
Did you think that even the 110 pk engines needs a heat exchanger and that a heat exchanger need a lot of fresh air that you will NOT get in the engine bay ?
Did you see that the good breakers will try to get ALL the peripherics up to the contact key because when this is not recognized you get plenty of electrical issues ?
Have you heard about the fact that some of them have a very very problematic Siemens fule pump (Bosch is no issue) ?
Did you hear about all the HDI who stops because of a bad electrical contact "somewhere" ..
Or Lock themselves in "safe" mode, so that you can drive at 1500 rpm maximum
Or do it when the engine is at temperature ?
Have you heard people being told that there is "a problem" with the injectors and that all the system needs to be replaced at a cost more expensive than their car value ?µ
Have you heard about new precharge pump that don't provide enough presure ?

There a LOTS of issues with these engines and 200.000 km without much attention, forget about it. Never !
When with the 1300 , 1440 , 1590 cc Matra engine, 300.000 km are possible, most of these HDI don't get to that milleage.

Last issues in February this year : Engine stop while driving. Not able to diagnose the possible cause, several Citroen diagnostics. The only wrong thing discovered was a pre heating plugs control box. Can you tell me what this could have to do when you have the issue when driving ?
Box replaced (and only that) and the issue disappeared.   
... for 10.000 km and comes back (or another one)
Then only thing done : replacing the still good battery by a better one, new.
And ... the issue is gone again.
What could be the battery impact on a diesel engine running ??? And when the alternator is delivering corrctly ?

Is that what you are thinking reliable ?

I'm living with this engine every day and I can tell you that at 200.000 Km, you just think about throwing it away. And this with the standard untuned power. I got before that a XUD 11 ATE and at 300.000 km, I was far from thinking the same

Spyros, it seems you have good reason to rant over your diesel, but don't try to prove Waldo wrong. Any engine conversion is a big project and he deserves our support and encouragement.

- Anders

I have to say, that I don't want to be bad to somebody - we are just discusing... But couldn't agree with You Anders in one point - not every project must be good. And in this case, good friends are those who tell you: "hey man, you are wasting time and money for nonsense, you better invest all the money to a second car - for ex.Fiesta 1,2 with low consumption and let your Matra for fun time ;) "

I disagree, Michal. You can make a friends' life miserable if you're the one telling him what he does wrong without actually helping him.
I can't spot the good discussion here.

You're a nice guy, but Waldo is far down the road already. Why try to change his mind now?

Anders,

I feel obliged to quote myself to try to convince you that I also think that this is a heavy work.
I also admire the additional difficulty of preserving the chassis.
But I think there is something wrong in the attitude of knowing since the start that there is a problem with project and to let it go, just to be polite with the person.
If Waldo is doing such a conversion, it's his choice and I respect this. As an HDI conversion.
It's the "Let's tune it to 140 pk and that should be good for 200000 km without attention" that is silly. 
Nothing else.
I don't want to change his mind to do this project. I'd like him to open his eyes and to consider if tuning an old engine is really the way to go when the goal is to do 200000 km .
I'm also having some odd conversion project and the goal is first to have it working.

Hi Spyros...

It seems I know more about these engines than you! Will reply a little later today... but you are SO wrong  ;)

Can I just tell you I have had 3 HDI engine with 380k, 345k and 465k without ANY problems apart from the pulley mentioned... and cleaning the EGR, not disconnecting  8)

Dear Waldo,

1 million 200 thousand km driving experience with 1 engine is difficult to beat.
Post if this is helping you but this is useless. There is no hope to convince me.

I wish you good luck.

But, have you heard about the damper puley issue ?

Yes I know about the damper pulley issues, and when you are aware of this, it's an easy job to change the pulley with every 2nd cambelt change!

Have you heard about the "special clutch" ?

I believe the clutch you are refering to is the dual mass clutch found on the RHZ(DW10ATED) engine... This is a "strange" construction, that isn't used on my RHY (DW10TD) engine. The clutch on the RHY is usually good for approx. 300Nm and a upgraded clutch (good for 400Nm) can be bought for 230€...

Have you heard about the EGR valve that is far from simple to disconnect without generating another electric alarm that will lock the engine. ?  

Why should I disconnect the EGR  ??? It's there for a good reason!
Lower admission, lower fuel consumption and better torque when running part throttle...

Have you seen the tar that you can remove from this EGR valve that will strangle your admission ?

Yes I have cleaned the EGR system more than once on the HDI... The problem is mainly there when running long service intervals... I'm always doing 10-12,000 oil change intervals and cleaning the EGR every 150-200,000km is fine.

Have you heard about these marvlous exhaust that rust and snap at the welding (impossible to repair)  

Not using the standard exhuast... but yes I agree the PSA exhuast connection are crap!

Did you think that even the 110 pk engines needs a heat exchanger and that a heat exchanger need a lot of fresh air that you will NOT get in the engine bay ?  

I'm using a charge cooler as mentioned... by the way, the RHY can be run at 120bhp without any extra cooling.

Did you see that the good breakers will try to get ALL the peripherics up to the contact key because when this is not recognized you get plenty of electrical issues ?

I'm not stupid... I bought a complete car in UK and have the complete electrics up to the egnition key!
This is also the best way to get parts, buying a car in the UK and selling it on as spare parts. That way I can usually get an engine with accesories for free...

Have you heard about the fact that some of them have a very very problematic Siemens fule pump (Bosch is no issue) ?

Guess what... I made sure to get an Bosch  ;D

Did you hear about all the HDI who stops because of a bad electrical contact "somewhere" ..
Or Lock themselves in "safe" mode, so that you can drive at 1500 rpm maximum
Or do it when the engine is at temperature ?
Have you heard people being told that there is "a problem" with the injectors and that all the system needs to be replaced at a cost more expensive than their car value ?µ
Have you heard about new precharge pump that don't provide enough presure ?

No I never had a HDI engine lock itself into safe mode without a reason... Using the diagnostic tool have always helped me!
Injectors problems are not very common, and new injectors can be found at very reasonable cost.
Here in Denmark we consider a HDI diesel to be good for at least 350,000km but again we are kind of strange due to the high tax on cars  ;)

When with the 1300 , 1440 , 1590 cc Matra engine, 300.000 km are possible, most of these HDI don't get to that milleage.

But I would hate to go 300,000km with these loud, inefficient and poluting petrol engines  :o

I'm living with this engine every day and I can tell you that at 200.000 Km, you just think about throwing it away. And this with the standard untuned power.

I drove 2,000km with the 1590ccm Talbot/Matra engine and was shocked by the dated construction...

Here in Denmark we acually have some of the most experienced guys in HDI tuning, we are having people from Germany and UK coming over to have their Peugeot 206 HDI remapped...

To correct any misunderstandings I haven't driven with HDI engines for 1,200,000km, but between the 4 of my family members who have been running HDI engines I have serviced engines that have done this mileage in total...

I'm not trying to convince anyone, but I don't feel like having Spyros telling me what I can or can't do, when I sure know what I'm doing!

OK... managed to spend a few hours on the car(s) today!

To answer my own question regarding the trailing arms I took a picture of the 1.6 and 2.2 next to each other.

(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1339/p1010100cl3.jpg)

Difference is even bigger than I thought, so give me the needed space for the HDI gearbox  ;D

By the way, the chassis have been modified greatly to accomodate the larger 2.2 engine. If anyone if looking to install custom engines in a Murena, I would suggest to use a 2.2 as the base  :P

I have taken a few extra pictures to show how I'm getting on.

(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9514/p1010095kc9.jpg)
2.2 donor car during some TLC  ;D

(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2153/p1010097qo1.jpg)
Can you spot something wrong? Not sure the engine is fit for fight  :o

(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5912/p1010101zt2.jpg)
2nd hand charge cooler to be fitted

(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/6127/p1010098rz1.jpg)
New alternator belt installed... Needed to relocate the spring loaded tensioner slightly. As the power steering and aircon pumps are gone belt is also a lot shorter.
I found the power steering belt from a Citröen ZX 1.4 to be a perfect fit.

I'll keep you posted... next up is renovating the trailing arms and installing the charge cooler and fuel pump!

Wow, These trailing arms are making a lot of difference! You can realy see the 2.2 ones are designed to make room for the gearbox.  The anti-roll bar of a 2.2 is the same width as a 1.6 So you can see the 2.2 trailing arm has about 5 cm more space. Using 2.2 traling arms when doing an engine conversion in a 1.6 is a clever thing to do. (but might be expensive)

If anyone is having thoughts about fitting a charge cooler?
I can inform that a system similar to the one shown above is listed on ebay.co.uk.
It seems to be a good choice/fit for the Murena...

link please :)

Hmm... you couldn't search yourself  :P

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rs-turbo-charge-cooler_W0QQitemZ300233716704QQihZ020QQcategoryZ21654QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (ftp://http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rs-turbo-charge-cooler_W0QQitemZ300233716704QQihZ020QQcategoryZ21654QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

This one looks to be in better condition (like perfect), but mine was also good and less expensive!

I have put in a bid on the unit allready, just to test the reserve that have been set. 150£ is lower than the reserve I can inform you  ;)

I'll bid on it to if you dont mind... but I'm not certain that he will ship to Denmark.

Hi Krede,

Of course you are welcome to bid... that's the idea of an auction  ;)

I'm not going to put any further bids on the system, so I won't raise the price against you  ;D

Have you tried asking him about shipping?
In general my experience is that most do ship to Denmark if asked kindly...