Starter connections.. failure

[flew]

Anybody have problems with their starter??

Mine doesn't get steady power (kl 30)...

Anybody knows what the fault can be??

I hope I don't need to replace the cabel....

[michaltalbot]

Where did You measured the power? I'm not a big friend with electrics but think that it is possible to measure the resistance and conductivity of single cabel.

[flew]

try that with a cable 3 meters long... 

[michaltalbot]

Sometimes helps to make new connections at the ends of the cabel...

[suffolkpete]

Also check the battery connections, the earth to the chassis from the battery and the engine earth strap, attached to the gearbox.  It's unlikely to be the cable itself.  If everything is in good order and the battery is in a good state of charge, then it could be the motor itself, needing a new set of brushes.  What are the symptoms?  Is the motor engaging and failing to turn the engine over, or is nothing happening when you turn the key (not even the lights dimming)?  If the latter it could be the connections to the solenoid or the solenoid itself, or even the key switch.

[Jon Weywadt]

Anybody have problems with their starter??

Mine doesn't get steady power (kl 30)...

Anybody knows what the fault can be??

I hope I don't need to replace the cabel....

On an old starter motor the problem could be the brushes being worn down so they barely make contact. Also the contact in the starter selenoid could be corroded. The brushes can be replaced and if you do, clean the commutator with a fine grid (240 grain) sanding cloth. If it has been severely groved, it may be necessary to have it turned. If it is turned, remember to clean the spaces between the commutator plates for metal shavings to prevent shorting.

[flew]

It's a new starter from simons, but the old also had problems with the same symptoms....

I can hear the starter clicking when I turn the key. And when i disconnect the small "wire" is does nothing. So believe that wire is okay..

I have disconneted the big wire (the one from the batteri). Tried with a testlamp, but there is no power going to the end... Conclusion there no power in that cabel... 

There is also a "mediun" wire.. But can't measure anything on that... I think I took it off the same place as the "big" wire
 
I can almost not turn it, despite having jumpcables on the starter itself... 

But where is the engine earth strap located..?? Thought the starter simply got the earth from the bolts...

Everything else works fine besides the starter...

[krede]

Whats the condition of the battery ??... sounds like its discharged.

[flew]

Have the original batterie in the front and it's fully charged. Then I have a spare in the back for the jumpcables also fully charged...

[suffolkpete]

But where is the engine earth strap located..?? Thought the starter simply got the earth from the bolts...

On my 1.6, the earth strap runs from the diff housing on the gearbox to the chassis.  It sounds as though there's no power coming from the battery though.  If you've got a spare battery, try connecting that directly to the starter with your jump leads and see if that works.

[flew]

tried with the jump leads with a second batteri (the one from my 205) and it turn over very slow or not at all. And the kabels are getting warm..

[roy4matra]

It's a new starter from simons, but the old also had problems with the same symptoms....

So it was probably not the starter in the first place and you took a guess, which has cost you a new starter motor unnecessarily.  If a professional technician does something like this, everyone shouts about rubbish garages and rip-offs.  Yet I see people here doing it all the time themselves...

I can hear the starter clicking when I turn the key. And when i disconnect the small "wire" is does nothing. So believe that wire is okay..

I have disconneted the big wire (the one from the batteri). Tried with a testlamp, but there is no power going to the end... Conclusion there no power in that cabel...

Not necessarily true.  When you say you tested the main cable with a test lamp, where exactly did you make your test lamp connections?

You should have the test lamp earth on the battery earth, and first test the test lamp by connecting the other end to the battery positive.  If the lamp lights you have proved everything in your test circuit is fine.  Now you should move the positive connection of the test lamp to the end of the main cable you have removed from the starter BUT DO NOT changed anything else.  I know this is more awkward with the battery at the front and the starter at the rear, but you simply require long test leads - what is the problem.  If the test lamp no longer lights or only very dimly then the main lead has a problem.

If you move both the positive AND the negative of your test lamp, then it proves nothing until you have verified you have a good earth too.  On any vehicle but especially these cars with galvanised chassis, that should never be taken for granted.

There is also a "mediun" wire.. But can't measure anything on that... I think I took it off the same place as the "big" wire

If it came off the same connection as the main power lead then it is probably the alternator supply and won't have any power until connected with the main lead as that is where it gets its power!

I can almost not turn it, despite having jumpcables on the starter itself... 

But where is the engine earth strap located..??

The power unit main earth is a braided cable that connects to the differential housing.

Thought the starter simply got the earth from the bolts...

The starter motor does get its earthing through contact with the engine block and mounting bolts, but if the engine itself is not earthed as the main earth lead has broken or is not making a clean contact then that supposition is false...

Everything else works fine besides the starter...

But nothing else requires the amount of current that the starter does!

Will the engine turn easily by hand?  If the engine is seized, or hydraulically locked, no amount of power to the starter will have the result you require. :-)

First, you need to make sure you really have good connections and the main cable is fine.  You could try the starter on the floor (removed from the engine but with the same main cable - pass the main lead down under the car and connect to the starter, then you will need a heavy duty earth lead to the starter casing and back to the chassis but make sure that really is a good earth to the battery.  If the starter now works, you have eliminated two things - the cable and motor.

All problems like this are a case of doing tests, collecting information, and possibly doing more tests on the basis of the results until you can track down the root cause.  It's detective work and you need to do things logically.

Roy

[Jon Weywadt]

If you try the starter on the floor as Roy suggest, make sure you have a good hold on it. There will be a tremendous torque when it spins up, that could have the whole starter rolling across the floor and wires shorting. But before taking the starter off, try putting the car in 4th or 5th gear and try to push it. You should be able to move the car and turn the engine over. If it won't move, there is a good chance of the engine lockup that Roy described. If you do remove the starter, try to turn it by hand first. That should be fairly easy. If not you could have a bad starter, even if it is "new" from Simon.

[suffolkpete]

ried with the jump leads with a second batteri (the one from my 205) and it turn over very slow or not at all. And the kabels are getting warm..

Sounds as though the starter is ok and you need a decent set of jump leads.  Be aware  that although the starter may appear to run freely when placed on the floor, when it's under load, the current will increase dramatically and it may still not turn the engine if there's any resistance in the cabling.

If a professional technician does something like this, everyone shouts about rubbish garages and rip-offs.

If you pay someone to do work for you,you expect them to know what they're doing.  We amateurs have to learn by experience and yes, we do often make the wrong decisions, it's part of the hidden cost of doing it yourself.

[roy4matra]

If you try the starter on the floor as Roy suggest, make sure you have a good hold on it. There will be a tremendous torque when it spins up, that could have the whole starter rolling across the floor and wires shorting.

Good point Jon.  I had taken it as read that anyone doing this would know what they were doing, and you need to hold the starter anyway to activate it.  Again this is a simple technique as long as you know what you are doing.  With positive and negative wires bolted in place, you simply flash a brief connection from the starter positive to the solenoid positive. (We used to use an old penny years ago to do this on many diesel trucks - no need for hot wiring!)

If not you could have a bad starter, even if it is "new" from Simon.

Yes, never discount a new part as possibly faulty.  I have had this so many times over the years.  However, since he said the original starter had the same symptoms, I doubt two would be faulty - not impossible but less likely.

Roy