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Author Topic: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring  (Read 18185 times)
Oetker
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2010, 09:30:19 pm »

Congratiulation Jon on a job well done.
The description and pics will make it easyer for me and rest of the community Wink
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Oetker
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 10:19:35 pm »

Quote
---------
the underside of the new synchro ring and the gear was 0,7 mm
===============================================
It is in range, but barely.
That is what the problem is about.
The gear where the synchro rest on is not good enough.
New synchro should have given 1mm
Not to be negative, but let's hope it will last.
I will give this extra attention in my rebuild.
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2010, 11:04:20 am »

All the other gear and synchros were about 0,7 mm in clearance. So with any luck they will last another 150.000 Km.  Cheesy

Anyway, they will work until the clearance reaches zero mm, which should take a while.
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Titus
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2010, 09:53:52 pm »

Help please.  Do I have the correct lay shaft bearing? Peugeot part no. 2373.04.
An offer by a kindly relative to 'easily' replace bearings whilst the box was out for other matters has turned a little more trickey than antisipated. The box is with him and he is on holiday until next week so I can't compare the parts. I'm hoping to have the car back on the road for our next MEC UK meeting at the beginning of August so time is short to find the correct part if I'm wrong. Looking at Jon Weywadt's photos I may have the wrong part.

Also, does anyone have a source for the bronze crank spigot?

Thanks.
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1.6 Murena
Oetker
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2010, 10:18:37 pm »

The number is correct, but it is not the bearing at clutch side.
It is number 2 on the drawing.
The number for that one is also on the drawing.
This is not verified by me as correct yet.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 10:23:02 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Titus
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Posts: 145



« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2010, 10:38:16 pm »

Thanks Oetker,

The part I need is bottom left numbered 3 in circle as attached. Any part no.?
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1.6 Murena
Oetker
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2010, 10:57:08 pm »

Probably on this drawing number 2373.07

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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Titus
Sr. Member
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Posts: 145



« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2010, 11:05:42 pm »

Yes, I'm sure that is it. I was advised to get the plate 2313.59 as it was worn. I have that so your advice makes sence. Now all I need is for it to be available.

Many thanks.
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1.6 Murena
Oetker
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2010, 11:13:39 pm »

Not cheap but look here.
http://eshop.original-teile.de/index.php?cl=search&searchparam=237307&lang=1&&listtype=search&searchparam=237307

Ofcourse you can try the local Citr/Peu dealer first.
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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Posts: 962



« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2010, 09:12:47 am »

Quote
---------
the underside of the new synchro ring and the gear was 0,7 mm
===============================================
It is in range, but barely.
That is what the problem is about.
The gear where the synchro rest on is not good enough.
New synchro should have given 1mm
Not to be negative, but let's hope it will last.
I will give this extra attention in my rebuild.
Well Oetker, your fears were well founded. Now that the synchro ring and gear has seated, I sometimes grind the 2.nd gear If I shift a little bit fast from 1. to 2. or from 3. to 2.  Angry My guess is that the cone on the gear wheel has worn. Perhaps it is nor hardened enough.

I am going to have to take it apart again. Sad This time I will try to get the cone on gear hard chrome plated or perhaps chrome plate the synchro ring.

It does not look like the original parts ever fit properly together. I imagine that several early Murena owners ran into this problem, so I wonder if Talbot solved the problem on later year Murenas. Does any of you know?

I haven't looked in the manuals yet, but can any of you cross-reference the partnumbers for the 2. gear and synchro ring, to a Citroen partnumber?

An other question. Is the ratio of the 2. gear the same on a 1.6 and a 2.2 Murena? Huh I ask because we have an extra 1.6 gear box lying around, that I could salvage the gear from.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2010, 12:44:40 pm »

Yes, I'm sure that is it. I was advised to get the plate 2313.59 as it was worn. I have that so your advice makes sence. Now all I need is for it to be available.

Many thanks.

This is nothing to do with second gear and the second gear synchro problem.  This is the fifth gear end of the gearbox and the plate that holds the bearings at that end.

No the problem is 2nd gears that were machined incorrectly so the cone is undersize.  This means that once the synchro ring has bedded it doesn't grip anymore and do the synchronisation as it should.  The only answer is that cone on the gear has to be the right size, which normally means a new correctly machined gear.

Roy
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Oetker
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« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2010, 10:59:07 am »

There must be updated gears for it.
Not sure where to find it yet, but it has all my attention.
My car is not first generation, but the problem is there.
In my rebuild I will try to find the right gears.
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
roy4matra
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2010, 10:16:23 am »

Quote
---------
the underside of the new synchro ring and the gear was 0,7 mm
===============================================
It is in range, but barely.
That is what the problem is about.
The gear where the synchro rest on is not good enough.
New synchro should have given 1mm
Not to be negative, but let's hope it will last.
I will give this extra attention in my rebuild.
Well Oetker, your fears were well founded. Now that the synchro ring and gear has seated, I sometimes grind the 2.nd gear If I shift a little bit fast from 1. to 2. or from 3. to 2.  Angry My guess is that the cone on the gear wheel has worn. Perhaps it is nor hardened enough.

I'm sure it was not a hardness factor.  I think they were simply machined too small in the first place.  When I stripped the gearbox that is in Anders car, you can see from the photo he posted, that the cone had not been touching in a long while - it was dark where it should have been highly polished.  If it had been worn owing to poor hardness, the surface would have been rough, and there would have been lots of swarf in the 'box.  There was no more debris inside than in a normal gearbox of that age and mileage.

Citroen would have realised the problem and had the machining corrected, and maybe even had a recall at the time, and certainly done some repairs under warranty, but since the Murena had such a short life, with these being a bought in component, and many cars possibly not doing a great enough mileage for the problem to show up during the period, I doubt many were complained of or done under warranty in the Murena's case.

The later gearboxes had the 1st and 2nd gears, bearings and synchromesh all modified and you have to replace everything since they fitted a radial thrust bearing too, which was not in the early ones.  So the components changed dimensions to leave room for this bearing.  When mods. like this come out, the early parts become no longer made or available, and you have to upgrade.  When I repaired the gearbox in Anders car, the only parts I could get were the newer ones, and I had to upgrade everything.  Of course it is now a better 'box!

Quote
I am going to have to take it apart again. Sad

Which is exactly why I told Anders that it was necessary - if I had fitted just a new synchro cone, I knew it would not be long before it would not be synchronising again - not a fault of the cone, but the undersize gear.  I only wish I had bought two complete kits of new parts now, as I think it might be difficult to get them now.  I just hope my gearbox stays good - fortunately I never had a problem with the second gear, so I'm hoping the one in my car was machined correctly! :-)

Quote
It does not look like the original parts ever fit properly together. I imagine that several early Murena owners ran into this problem, so I wonder if Talbot solved the problem on later year Murenas. Does any of you know?

This was not Talbots problem  It was a Citroen gearbox.  If Talbot had enough feedback during the short time the Murena was available, they might have made some call on Citroen to correct the ones they had purchased but my guess is they wouldn't have had enough evidence of the problem in time to do anything about it.

Quote
An other question. Is the ratio of the 2. gear the same on a 1.6 and a 2.2 Murena? Huh I ask because we have an extra 1.6 gear box lying around, that I could salvage the gear from.

Yes the 1.6 and 2.2 are the same gearbox.  It is only the differential that was a different ratio.  However, there are different versions of the gearbox from early to late, with things like different synchromesh units and other minor modifications that happen during the life of a product, but these would have been the same in 1.6 and 2.2

However, it is always worth checking the parts in another gearbox as the gear cone may be correct rather then undersize.  Since I have never found any numbers on the gearboxes, you can't easily tell which is which gearbox.  The only real way is to strip and inspect. :-(

Roy
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 10:31:20 am by roy4matra » Logged

Oetker
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2010, 10:53:56 am »

Thanks Roy for your explenation.
Is there a peu/citr number for the modification kit of the second gear.
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
suffolkpete
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2010, 12:39:30 pm »

This person http://www.peugeotparts.co.uk/ has a large stock of Peugeot parts dating back to 1960.  If you know the six-digit Talbot part number you can search the stock list.  I got a new dipstick for my 1.6 a couple of weeks ago (they're the same as the Peugeot 309) and I know there are some gearbox parts there.
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