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Author Topic: new owner in kent  (Read 8523 times)
roy4matra
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« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2020, 11:50:54 pm »

some pics of pump and the installed position on the car.  have fitted a warning light in the console for the pump and fan so it comes on with either over ride switch or the rad switch. also fitted a digital volt meter. As the console is not standard due to the choke cable I didn't mind inflicting some mods to it ! the gator is torn anyway and needs replacing.

I still think it's strange that you can't keep the engine cool with the mechanical water pump with the correct straight-bladed impeller...


What makes you say they have a straight bladed impeller Anders?  He says the new pump was the same as the old one but they could both have the curved vane impeller?  I don't see any picture either.  Maybe we could be told for definite which is has, please Tony.

Like Anders I would be surprised if it does have a straight vane close fitting impeller and it can't cool in traffic.  That would suggest it has another problem somewhere.  Does it have 6 or 8 vanes?  A picture of the pump and impeller would be useful, thanks.

Since the radiator bleed hose is not connected to the header tank correctly, that might be part of the problem.  But what ever the problem is, fitting the booster pump without correcting the original fault is the wrong way to tackle this.  You never try to compensate for a problem with something else non-standard.  That can lead to more trouble.

Roy
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 11:55:11 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2020, 06:54:43 am »

What makes you say they have a straight bladed impeller Anders?  He says the new pump was the same as the old one but they could both have the curved vane impeller?  I don't see any picture either.  Maybe we could be told for definite which is has, please Tony.

I wrote a positive statement to be confirmed or disconfermed. It would indeed be good to see a picture of the impeller of your old pump, Tony.
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1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah
tonyz59
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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2020, 10:41:52 am »

Anders/Roy I don't have any pics sorry ,the pump came from Simon's so was exchanged, but pretty sure it was straight vaned. I reconfigured the hose layout as suggested by Anders from my original picture that i posted. To be honest I was thinking about putting it back as was, maybe with a one way valve inserted inline to see if it makes a difference.  ( opinions welcomed on that thought ) that's how the car had been set up with the alloy tank for possibly years with no issues ? with having no real history I am finding things out as i come across them, as for instance yesterday did a oil change don't know how long since the oil filter had been changed but a decade was my thought ! I also noticed several sump bolts missing ! The car is certainly testing my patience and bank balance !
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roy4matra
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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2020, 11:21:40 am »

Anders/Roy I don't have any pics sorry, the pump came from Simon's so was exchanged, but pretty sure it was straight vaned.

OK well that's a start to know that it appears to have had the correct pump.  Now the next thing is that after you changed the pump, how did you bleed all the air out when filling the system?

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I reconfigured the hose layout as suggested by Anders from my original picture that i posted. To be honest I was thinking about putting it back as was, maybe with a one way valve inserted inline to see if it makes a difference.  (opinions welcomed on that thought)

These cars/engines have a special hose connection sequence and circulation, and if it is not correct may cause problems.  So the first thing I would need to know is how all the hoses are connected (where to where) as I cannot make it out from the few photos here.  But as pointed out, it appears you have the radiator bleed hose connected to the top of the header tank where there is air, when it should be at the bottom of the tank under the surface of the coolant.  Email me direct to my matraclub email please not here.

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that's how the car had been set up with the alloy tank for possibly years with no issues ?

Or possibly it did have issues, which is why it had been unused for so many years!  I know that car had spent over six years unused by one owner who finally sold it in 2017, he had it for two years and then you bought it, possibly because that new owner couldn't fix the problem that the previous owner had left it unused since 2010/11.   I usually find that cars that either sit unused for years or change hands often, are because they have issues and the owners don't understand how to fix them.  BTW You could have asked me as I have 2.2 water pumps in stock.

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... with having no real history I am finding things out as i come across them, as for instance yesterday did a oil change don't know how long since the oil filter had been changed but a decade was my thought ! I also noticed several sump bolts missing ! The car is certainly testing my patience and bank balance !

Which is exactly why these sort of problems mean they change hands often, or languish off the road for long times.

Quite possibly the oil and filter hadn't been changed in a long time owing to all that time spent off the road.  As for sump bolts missing, which ones Tony?  I'm curious to know why for one thing but also if it is more important than you realise.

Roy
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tonyz59
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« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2020, 05:07:55 pm »

well having the car running with a steady temperature for a week with no issues in various traffic conditions and around 150 miles, I decided to get some new front tyres with the slightly lower profile as suggested by Roy, definitely improved the steering for about ten miles ! I now seem to have a blown head gasket, had oil blowing out the dipstick tube all over the engine and I can see water spraying about under the rocker cover via the oil filler cap. So I know its an engine out job to change the gasket but maybe the rings are damaged as well with the blow back issue so so not a cheap or quick fix if at all. just to add the breather filter was cleaned out and not blocked, as I know it can cause the blow back issue if blocked or caked up. I am not sure how or when i will proceed yet. I might have to wait for later on in the year if funds will allow.From what I can see £4k is what car joy are quoting for an exchange engine I'm not sure if that is around the amount required to do it over here and is the car worth spending £4k on.  ? I might do some investigation on the trailing arms to see if they will play ball to make life easier ( as that is just my time) if i go ahead with the engine removal ! Also just to add the car never overheated when this happened and managed to drive home around 5miles without any misfiring or real loss of power, I only knew it happened because i did not have the engine cover on and could see the oil hitting the glass hatch !
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suffolkpete
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« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2020, 11:14:39 am »

You can take the head off without removing the engine.  If you've got water spraying into the cam cover then that could be what is pressurising the oil.  I would just remove the head and inspect the damage before doing anything more radical. The rings may well be ok.
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tonyz59
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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2020, 03:29:34 pm »

I was under the impression it was a pain to do in situ ! I guess if i lower it an support the engine as when i changed the water pump this will make it easier to deal with the cam chain end of things then ? I must have upset the Matra Gods, as i looked at the trailing arm with its possible removal if the engine has to come out, and found a hole roughly 30mm x 15mm near the outer bush mounting, can this be repaired ? the rest of the arm looks be okay at the shock and anti roll bar mountings all look good.
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suffolkpete
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2020, 07:23:14 pm »

You can get away with just lowering the left side of the engine slightly.  The trailing arm sounds like a write-off.  That seems to be the place where they all go first, but the rest is probably weakened too and any repair would only prolong the life slightly and may not be acceptable for the MoT.  All the major suppliers supply replacements, but I suggest you read the relevant threads on this forum first.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2020, 07:24:11 pm »

... I now seem to have a blown head gasket, had oil blowing out the dipstick tube all over the engine and I can see water spraying about under the rocker cover via the oil filler cap. So I know its an engine out job to change the gasket...

First that last comment is wrong, as Peter has pointed out.  You can certainly do a head gasket replacement without taking the engine out.  You simply lower the gearbox end as you do to change the water pump, to give you access to take the upper timing cover off to get at the camshaft gear bolts and remove the timng chain, but first you must back off the timing chain tensioner!  Many forget to do this and that can then mean the engine has to come out.

However, two things worry me about your description.  You say water or more correctly I hope, coolant which conrtains anti-freeze, is spraying about under the cam cover!  Even if a head gasket has blown that is an unusual thing to happen as there is no easy path from a blown head gasket to the cam and rocker cover area.  The first thing that you need to do therefore is remove the cam cover, remove most of oil from the top so you can see the four small core plugs under the cam in case one of those has sprung a leak.  That is about the only way I can think of that coolant would be spraying in that area.  If that has happened maybe the head gasket is in fact not blown.

The next thing would be to do a cylinder compression test, to verify if you do have a head gasket problem.

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but maybe the rings are damaged as well with the blow back issue

Very unlikely Tony.  For the oil coming from the dipstick, that could simply be crankcase pressure caused by a blocked vacuum port to the inlet manifold.  That is not uncommon as it can get carboned up.  If the port is blocked the green P.C.V. is going to get lots of oil mist through it as the pressure from the crankcase would blow via the cam cover hose and the suction from the top of the carb. assuming the set up is as per the originally designed system.

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... so so not a cheap or quick fix if at all.

Possibly not but that depends on just what has happened.  If it is a core plug and not the head gasket, it could be relatively quick and easy.

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just to add the breather filter was cleaned out and not blocked...

It's not a case of the filter being blocked, as that rarely happens, it's whether the vacuum port is blocked.  It the vacuum from the inlet manifold cannot draw the fumes from the crankcase, then the crankcase will pressurise and you will get oil blowing out of any other possible orifice and that usually means the dipstick tube and the mechanical fuel pump for starters.

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I am not sure how or when i will proceed yet.

As I said, remove the cam cover first, which is relatively easy, to see if there is a lot of coolant in that area along with the oil which should be there.  Remove the oil or oil and coolant, in the wells using either a small oil syringe or soak it up will cloth, and check those core plugs.

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From what I can see £4k is what car joy are quoting for an exchange engine I'm not sure if that is around the amount required to do it over here and is the car worth spending £4k on.

At this stage an engine exchange is possibly way over the top, and in any case why go to Europe when I have engines here?

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I might do some investigation on the trailing arms to see if they will play ball to make life easier (as that is just my time) if i go ahead with the engine removal!

If you have a problem with a trailing arm or arms, then that sould be a major consideration first as these are not cheap!

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Also just to add the car never overheated when this happened and managed to drive home around 5miles without any misfiring or real loss of power, I only knew it happened because i did not have the engine cover on and could see the oil hitting the glass hatch !

Which is another reason that the first suspect should NOT be the head gasket.  You need to find out what has happened before you can make any informed choice of how to proceed.

Roy
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 07:31:13 pm by roy4matra » Logged

tonyz59
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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2020, 08:11:32 pm »

Thanks Peter/Roy for the replies / advice . I will get the cam cover off tomorrow  and see what I can find. I will do a compression test aswell. Just to add the vacuum pipe and manifold port are clear and can feel a vacuum pull. I only mentioned the carjoy engine price as i was wading through some of the known suppliers to get an idea of what it would cost to obtain a rebuilt engine that was all. I have not worked on a cam chain engine in 40 years that was a  twin cam XK jag, as in removing a head i have mainly taken heads off OHV Ford's and my old Daimler V8250 and a few belt driven engines. So what is the procedure to back off the tensioner please ? I am using water as a generic term for coolant i have purchased many litres recently , comma have definitely made some cash out of me in recently.
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tonyz59
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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2020, 02:05:27 pm »

Well I am back on working on the car after my bar in the garden project  Grin Every thing is off and removed even the slave cylinder  Angry and the wiring disconnected so it's just dropping out of the engine and box  Roll Eyes The arm is worse than i thought and the thermostat housing hose connections spigots have pretty much had it as well !
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 02:10:27 pm by tonyz59 » Logged
Matraman
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« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2020, 03:41:12 pm »

That trailing arm has rotted through in exactly the same place as my LH one did. I wonder if that's a common place for them to go, it's right in line with the wheel so would get a regular blast with gravel. I found that the RH one was completely solid, so I just bought a new LH one from Politecnic. I looked at options for welding the LH one, but when I chopped it in half to send the hub to Politecnic I got a full dustpan of rust out of the inside of the trailing arm. That's a lot of metal gone missing, so I'm glad I did it. I could hear it all rolling round inside before I cut it in half, but I could hear very little sound coming from the RH arm. At £670 a pop it wasn't worth buying a RH one when I didn't need it.

Nice bar BTW  Wink
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Andrew
tonyz59
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« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2020, 04:28:06 pm »

That trailing arm has rotted through in exactly the same place as my LH one did. I wonder if that's a common place for them to go, it's right in line with the wheel so would get a regular blast with gravel. I found that the RH one was completely solid, so I just bought a new LH one from Politecnic. I looked at options for welding the LH one, but when I chopped it in half to send the hub to Politecnic I got a full dustpan of rust out of the inside of the trailing arm. That's a lot of metal gone missing, so I'm glad I did it. I could hear it all rolling round inside before I cut it in half, but I could hear very little sound coming from the RH arm. At £670 a pop it wasn't worth buying a RH one when I didn't need it.

Nice bar BTW  Wink

Does the politecnic arm come with the bushes or are they an extra cost ? my right arm looks like it has been replaced in the past, it almost looks like it has been galvanised. on my elan turbo the rear lower wishbones are a known weak spot, and are similar price to the murena ones luckily for me they had been replaced in the past and these are galvanised as well now.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 10:03:06 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged
tonyz59
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2020, 12:01:50 pm »

Well the engine is out Smiley plonked by the air conditioner for a cool working area  Cool Hopefully it is only the head gasket that has failed on N01 cylinder as the compression readings were pretty good on the others. I found dropping out the engine was straight forward, my tilting lift definitely made it quite easy to get the height required.  I did find it  a bit unwieldy pulling it out from under the car. I think i will have to make the custom Trolley like the one  Anders used for his engine removal for the return journey ! 
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Matraman
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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2020, 02:03:53 pm »

I like that tilting lift, I used a combination of trolley jacks and axle stands, more time consuming for sure. If I did the job again I would remove the gearbox and engine separately even though it's a bit more fiddly, but there's less weight to haul in and out. I have a hydraulic bike lift on wheels for dragging the engine out and putting it back, but it was on the limit of its capacity with the combined engine and gearbox unit, so was I! In fact your photo seems to show you have something similar.

The Politecnic price included the bushes and wheel bearing, but they won't fit them, so you have to do that yourself. I had a nightmare trying to fit the bushes with a small hydraulic press I borrowed from a neighbour, so in the end another neighbour took it to a truck maintenance shop and got everything pressed into place there. I recommend not trying threaded bars and winding these things in, they are just too tight in my limited experience.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 02:09:07 pm by Matraman » Logged

Andrew
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