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Author Topic: Dan's 1.6 repairs  (Read 21480 times)
MatraIan
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« Reply #150 on: February 18, 2022, 11:49:23 am »

I have to say that the FAQ pages on Roy's website are invaluable,
 https://www.matraclub.org.uk/index2.html
I visit his site regularly just to if there are any new articles and updates.
I always look there first and on here, Matrasport.dk and also https://www.matraforum.de/mf/ and translate to research things if i have any maintenance work to do or problems with my Murena. It has helped me no end in restoring my car and Roy's advice is second to none.
I am not a trained mechanic but do have an engineering background and tend to approach things logically and step by step and not jump to conclusions.
Too many mechanics rely on the diagnostics, I had an issue with a car and it had been 'diagnosed' by Ex main dealer mechanics and quoted between £800 and £1800 depending on what they found. To avoid un-necessary expense i paid to have a main dealer look at it and was quoted around £2000 which was to fix something totally un-related to the previous diagnosis. I spent a few hours on the internet researching the issues and did a few checks myself, then went to a one man garage mechanic ( a friend from a motor club)  to discuss and it was fixed for £260 and has been fine since. 

DAN - you should look at Roy's website and read every page !! Seroiusly, every page, I did this before i actually bought my first Murena ( i have had 2, a 1.6 and a 2.2S) and learnt a lot, but also have a play around on this site using the search facility.
I have found so many things to help me in the past, and most things you come accross will already have been a problem for someone else.
I thinks Roy's comments are quite valid even if they may seem a little harsh but even after Roy confirmed the D8 alternator was not fitted to any Murena you still said you assumed it was fitted to the 2.2's.
You will spend a lot of time and money if you keep making assumptions without checking the facts and logically working through things from the start. Been there - done that when i was younger!

Good luck Dan with your continuing project.
ps You can use this forum to PM people about specific things if you want to.
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Murena 2.2 S Red 1984, Rover 600 ti, BMW 1 coupe M sport. Mercedes C class CGI sport
Matraman
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Posts: 64


« Reply #151 on: February 19, 2022, 04:18:22 pm »

I agree that Roy's pages are well worth reading before you embark on a Murena job if, like me, you're not mechanically trained. Sometimes I couldn't find what I needed to know so I asked Roy at that stage and always received a very complete answer.

On that basis I managed to rebuild the engine, replace the whole cooling system, refurbish the brake calipers, replaced the brake lines and do many many other smaller jobs, most of which were in Roy's pages. Not bad for a nutritionist!
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Andrew
Grapes
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Posts: 166


« Reply #152 on: February 20, 2022, 04:42:15 pm »

Hi all, yeah Roy is right in mentioning that I should have researched better. Or in any case questioning if I did any research. I've grown very used to fast moving chat rooms for trouble shooting anything really so I have stopped doing extensive research. In other words grown lazy.
Also, indeed I know very very little about cars. Keen to learn though. When I bought the Murena I wasn't looking for it, I hardly knew it. Was looking for a drivable easy project and only realised that the Murena isn't really ideal after I bought it, but I have it now and I'm not planning to give it up either.

@Roy: The article I found on rac.co.uk.

I'll start by checking the ground as suggested and I will read Roy's pages. The window motors where a bit of an after thought since I wanted to do them at some point and wondered if I could do them easily whilst having the vehicle operational. Now I know I can't.
I will try to stop assuming 😅.

@MatraIan The D8 was mentioned in the Dutch workplace manual and since Roy mentioned the D9 is a match for the 2.2 I thought it wouldn't be far fetched if the D8 would be in the Dutch workplace manual because of the 2.2.
There are two mentioned in my original Dutch workplace manual, the Paris Rhone D8 and one from Bosch. I now know that the Bosch fits the 1.6 and the Paris Rhone doesn't. So if the Paris Rhone D8 is not in the manual for the 2.2.... Then why would it be listed in the Dutch manual?

Oh yes and the car was only towed, no one looked at it. It didn't start, not with the booster, not with the jump leads it got towed to the place where I could get a car from the insurance and after the weekend they simply dropped it off at my place and the next day I tried starting it and it worked. That's all I know really.

I think that's all for now. I will read through the replies again another time to check if I missed anything.

Thanks!


« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 11:12:51 pm by Grapes » Logged
roy4matra
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« Reply #153 on: February 23, 2022, 11:56:14 am »

Hi all, yeah Roy is right in mentioning that I should have researched better. Or in any case questioning if I did any research. I've grown very used to fast moving chat rooms for trouble shooting anything really so I have stopped doing extensive research. In other words grown lazy.
Also, indeed I know very very little about cars. Keen to learn though. When I bought the Murena I wasn't looking for it, I hardly knew it. Was looking for a drivable easy project and only realised that the Murena isn't really ideal after I bought it, but I have it now and I'm not planning to give it up either.

No, you certainly don't need to give it up, as it is a nice looking car, and you are keen to learn which is good, but to save yourself being ripped off by even professional garages or mechanics who may not be good enough to understand a rare care like the Murena, you need to understand the reason for faults and what actually needs to be done to rectify them.

Quote
Oh yes and the car was only towed, no one looked at it. It didn't start, not with the booster, not with the jump leads it got towed to the place where I could get a car from the insurance and after the weekend they simply dropped it off at my place and the next day I tried starting it and it worked. That's all I know really.

OK, now I know there was no work done really, to cure the non-starting, the fact that it started the next day for you, shows it was probably a poor connection somewhere, and since you mention moving the earth contact on the battery at one point, it is possible if the connectors are original they need changing now as they cannot be clamped as tight as they should be.  This is a common problem with those original lead battery clamps - they get so that even with the bolt as tight as you can get it, the clamp cannot tighten on the battery post securely as the clamp has fully closed with no air gap.  A battery clamp should have a gap between the ends even when tight so that the bolt can pull the clamp onto the post securely and have a 'reserve' to tighten it more if things get worn.

Take a read of my large posting on Electrics, and see the section about Earthing, where I describe this.  Read it all through carefully as the whole of it is important.  And if you haven't got an AVO meter it would be a good investment, even if you have to learn how to use it.  Being able to measure voltage, and resistances and continuity is so important when checking electrical issues.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 23, 2022, 11:58:46 am by roy4matra » Logged

Grapes
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« Reply #154 on: March 08, 2022, 03:52:02 pm »

Thanks Roy, it is indeed time for a new earth wire from the battery. I've tightened it as best I can but I've had a look together with another Murena owner and he said the same thing. He also did a more thorough inspection of the underside on his bridge and was overall very happy with the general state of the car. He is going to help me with the carb and have a more in depth look at the engine. We also found out that the springs on the rear where not matching which explained the slight lean (left sits a whole 2cm lower in fact).
We didn't look at the windows and the other electronics yet at this point but over-all everything seems to be in rather good shape.
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Murena1400
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« Reply #155 on: March 09, 2022, 11:01:18 pm »

Thanks Roy, it is indeed time for a new earth wire from the battery. I've tightened it as best I can but I've had a look together with another Murena owner and he said the same thing. He also did a more thorough inspection of the underside on his bridge and was overall very happy with the general state of the car. He is going to help me with the carb and have a more in depth look at the engine. We also found out that the springs on the rear where not matching which explained the slight lean (left sits a whole 2cm lower in fact).
We didn't look at the windows and the other electronics yet at this point but over-all everything seems to be in rather good shape.

Be aware that a 1600 has 2 different springs on the rear from the factory, which gives a 14mm difference between the 2.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #156 on: March 14, 2022, 02:12:42 pm »

Be aware that a 1600 has 2 different springs on the rear from the factory, which gives a 14mm difference between the 2.

I was aware that the Murena 1.6 had different coil springs at the rear, as the two are listed in the parts manual, (32729800 RH and 32852300 LH) but I always wondered why they never gave a colour coding for them, which manufacturers usually do and Matra themselves did for the different front torsion bars.

However, if they are different lengths that would be one possible reason for not having a colour code to distinguish them, but that is not a good or foolproof way as you might only have one spring to hand, without its part number, so how would you know which side it should be fitted? A difference of only 14mm would be easy to miss, especially if different springs got mixed up in the parts department!

To which side was the longer spring fitted? Do you know? Where was this information listed? Neither the official Matra Workshop Manual nor Parts Manual make any reference to which was the longer coil spring, which seems like a gross oversight and likely to cause a wrong fitting as may be the case with Dan's car.

Roy
« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 02:18:35 pm by roy4matra » Logged

suffolkpete
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« Reply #157 on: March 14, 2022, 07:37:50 pm »

Logic would suggest that the longer is fitted on the RH side to compensate for the camber on a LHD car.
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Grapes
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« Reply #158 on: March 16, 2022, 12:37:55 am »

Ah, I'm not sure if there is in fact one longer than the other. All I know is that it leans at the left rear because we measured it. The carpet over the top where the screws are under according to the manual seems undamaged and original. Maybe it's supposed to be lower on the left rear? Or maybe 40 years of driving with only a driver has weighted it more down on that side?

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Murena1400
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« Reply #159 on: March 16, 2022, 10:01:15 am »

Be aware that a 1600 has 2 different springs on the rear from the factory, which gives a 14mm difference between the 2.

I was aware that the Murena 1.6 had different coil springs at the rear, as the two are listed in the parts manual, (32729800 RH and 32852300 LH) but I always wondered why they never gave a colour coding for them, which manufacturers usually do and Matra themselves did for the different front torsion bars.

However, if they are different lengths that would be one possible reason for not having a colour code to distinguish them, but that is not a good or foolproof way as you might only have one spring to hand, without its part number, so how would you know which side it should be fitted? A difference of only 14mm would be easy to miss, especially if different springs got mixed up in the parts department!

To which side was the longer spring fitted? Do you know? Where was this information listed? Neither the official Matra Workshop Manual nor Parts Manual make any reference to which was the longer coil spring, which seems like a gross oversight and likely to cause a wrong fitting as may be the case with Dan's car.

Roy

There is a service information sheet in the 1981 binder that describes the modification of the springs on the 1.6L
I believe the longer spring is the right one, but I will have to check the sheet to be sure.
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JL
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« Reply #160 on: March 17, 2022, 02:28:47 pm »

It would seem to make sense that on a UK car the longer spring is fitted to the LHS, road camber and driver weight etc.
Cheers
John
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suffolkpete
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« Reply #161 on: March 17, 2022, 04:40:14 pm »

It does make sense, but only if you swap the torsion bars as well.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #162 on: March 17, 2022, 09:03:30 pm »

...
To which side was the longer spring fitted? Do you know? Where was this information listed? Neither the official Matra Workshop Manual nor Parts Manual make any reference to which was the longer coil spring, which seems like a gross oversight and likely to cause a wrong fitting as may be the case with Dan's car.

Roy

There is a service information sheet in the 1981 binder that describes the modification of the springs on the 1.6L
I believe the longer spring is the right one, but I will have to check the sheet to be sure.

I have the official service manual and the issued service updates but there is nothing in mine about this spring change as I checked before I posted.  However, it would be useful to know the answer, because we know the driver side (i.e. the left) has a stronger torsion bar at the front to compensate for the driver's offset weight on the left.  So if I had to guess, I might say the longer coil spring would also be for the left side.

However, for France, which the Murena was primarily designed for, they tend to have a heavy camber on the right, so it could have been meant for the right hand side.  Since the 2.2 has the same rear springs both sides, but a heavier engine that is predominantly on the right that might suggest it didn't need a longer spring, but maybe the 1.6 did.

So until I see it in writing, which side this longer spring was to be fitted, the jury is still out.

Roy
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Grapes
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« Reply #163 on: March 29, 2022, 09:07:20 pm »

Found out the main reason for my windows not working is at least one if not more  wire breaks.
Spent some time checking wires under the dashboard last weekend. It's a mess down there. I hope i can find out more about what goes where in the manual and hopefully replace some wires without too much hassle. It's annoying a lot of cabling is in a harness which makes it harder to do any repairs on single wires.

By the way, I noticed Carjoy finally has the new fuse boards that work with blade fuses. I remember Roy asking after them a while ago.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #164 on: March 31, 2022, 02:09:05 pm »

Found out the main reason for my windows not working is at least one if not more  wire breaks.
Spent some time checking wires under the dashboard last weekend. It's a mess down there. I hope i can find out more about what goes where in the manual and hopefully replace some wires without too much hassle. It's annoying a lot of cabling is in a harness which makes it harder to do any repairs on single wires.

By the way, I noticed Carjoy finally has the new fuse boards that work with blade fuses. I remember Roy asking after them a while ago.

Yes those new fuse boards have been available for a while, and I saw them when they first appeared, but thanks Dan.  For anyone that needs a new board they should be good but they are a little more expensive, as you would expect.  I can however provide a cheaper alternative if your original board is not too bad - I can repair minor track breaks, replace the poor continental plastic and wire fuses, with the older English glass fuse holders and fuses which have a much better positive contact, and re-tin all the contact patches.  If the edge push on terminals in the plugs are poor or broken, I can replace them with soldered on sockets and plugs.

Glass fuses:
http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3315.0;attach=6732;image

Replacement board connectors:
http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2986.0;attach=6826;image

As for your poor wiring, it does not surprise me I'm afraid, as so many Murena have been messed around with over the years.

The original hand books had the wiring included but in a format that some people cannot work with, and the factory workshop manuals had the more conventional type wiring diagrams.  But both had mistakes, so you should not rely on them entirely especially if you are not an auto electrician and do not fully understand car wiring.

Many of the diagrams freely available on the internet are even worse as they doubled the number of faults in the factory diagrams by being careless!  Mine are the only totally correct wiring diagrams since over the years I have painstakingly corrected all the faults.  Furthermore the factory only ever made two diagrams, one for the 1.6 and one for the 2.2 model, but that is insufficient to cover all the variations in reality.

So I always ask for certain information first, and then provide a diagram that should be correct for that particular car, and the diagram has the chassis number or VIN printed on it to show it is correct for that car only.  If the car has had the wiring modified from standard, I cannot cover those changes obviously, although if the owner can provide accurate additional wiring covering the modifications, I could probably incorporate them.

If you wanted a hard colour copy, I do charge a small fee to cover costs, but if you only want a graphic file which you can get printed yourself I don't charge for a standard diagram.

Roy
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 02:25:42 pm by roy4matra » Logged

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