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Author Topic: Air-Bag warning ~ 2.2dCi  (Read 21235 times)
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« on: July 08, 2008, 10:09:23 am »

I've started getting occasions when the air-bag warning lamp illuminates. Sometimes it occurs after start up but other times it's whilst driving in traffic... usually after a gear change. The warning lamp comes on followed by the usual Renault "Service" indicator but then quickly clears back to showing the time.

I know that the air-bag system is very sensitive to low voltage and voltage drops so guess that it may be an indication that the battery is getting a bit tired.... it's the original and now 6 years / 86,000 miles old.

There's no reason to suspect that the alternator/charge circuit is functioning anything but completely normally but I wonder if the momentary voltage drop when engine revs are lower, such as when gear changing, is enough to trigger the warning because the battery isn't holding sufficient voltage.

Anyone else had any similar experiences?

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
renaultbiler
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 10:13:11 am »

Check ALL connectors under both front seats first, 2 airbag connectors under each seat (seat side-bag and belt pyro). The airbag system self checks so if the fault is not present it will not warn even if a fault has been there. It does show on diagnostics regardless if a fault have been open (faultcode stored).
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 12:11:52 pm »

Hi Martin

We have the same problem on ours  Shocked

The "solution" is to turn the ignition off, lower and lift the driver's seat a few times using the handle on the side, and turn ignition on again => problem gone Cheesy

As Martin suggests, the problem is the connectors under the front seats. The solution employed by Renault mechanics is to cut off the connectors and solder the cables together.

Peugeot has the same problem with their connectors.

At one point the airbag fault came on permanently - this could only be fixed by replacing the airbag module. The module sits in front of the gear stick, so if the problem turns out not to be the connectors, you could be suffering from bad connections down there...

- Anders

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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
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Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 04:00:52 pm »

I've had both seats out and checked all connectors.... pyro pre-tensioner, both of the seat side air-bag connectors (one under the seat base and the one mounted above the seat swivel turntable) plus the seat-belt engagement sensor on the drivers seat and all OK.
No sign of any problems with any of the wiring either.

But although I didn't find anything that immediately suggests the problem is with the connectors or wiring it was a good opportunity to remove the dead bodies, potato chips, sweets and particles of foam from under the seat........ it wasn't as bad as that really....... I do look after my Espace.... but was disappointed I didn't find any money  Wink

Of course it may be, although there didn't appear to be any particular problem, that having disturbed and then reconnected the wiring connectors then I may have made good a poor connection and the problem will be solved.

Out of curiosity I put a meter across the battery and got 12.46 volts.... so down a bit.... but only a little.

Anyway, we'll see if this little issue now goes away.

Thanks for the input Tom and Anders

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 05:46:16 pm »

Just been out in the Espace and unfortunately the problem persists.... again shortly after a gear change when the engine was under load at low revs.... which is I why I thought that it may be due to a voltage drop but one would have thought that the alternator would provide sufficient power even if the battery was a little tired.... especially as there were no additional services drawing current... lights off... climate control switched off.

I'll check the air-bag module connections next

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
renaultbiler
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 06:07:47 pm »

There is also some connectors beside the BII unit that affects the airbag module - check them too
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 09:41:04 pm »

It's simple, Martin - only put the engine under load at high revs Grin that should make driving a lot more fun too!

Ok... seriously: As Tom suggests, a diagnosis may be able to hint which connection is problematic, but "cleaning" the connectors by pulling them off and rejoining them a few times could also help. Unfortunately, these airbag modules are known for giving problems, and it could also be the module itself that has a problem...

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
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Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 10:19:01 am »

Checked all connectors next to the BII and under the centre console to the air-bag module.
There was no apparent problem with any of the connectors in terms of them being loose or corroded.

But let the wife out in it for the day on Friday and although she didn't experience any problems with the air-bag warning she did have difficulty getting it started on two occasions.

Thankfully it started for me OK in the early hours of Saturday morning to collect my parents from the airport after a holiday to celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary.... if it hadn't then that would have given them the ultimate end to their holiday having already been delayed as a result of an emergency evacuation of the plane due to a serious fuel spillage whilst it was being refuelled and then delayed a second time because two passengers freaked at having to get off under those circumstances and wouldn't fly.... so they had to unload the baggage hold until they located the couple's luggage!!

But now the Espace won't start at all.... so an air-bag warning is the least of my worries  Sad

I'm going to try replacing the the TDC sensor and hope that cures it otherwise it seems like it could be repeat of the problem I had 18 months ago that turned out to be a leaking injector.

Martin
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 10:24:49 am by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2008, 02:54:59 pm »

Gosh, what a flight for your parents...   Shocked

What is it with these dci's in the UK at the moment? I hope it's just a simple fix for you, but there's now three or four users on the forum with similar problems...... Huh
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2008, 03:47:06 pm »

Well Anders I guess that it could be one of two things..... either it's that time of month  Wink.... or they are having an adverse reaction to our government (which seems so inept that it couldn't run a party in a brewery, never mind a country) imposing retrospective Vehicle Excise Duty (Road Tax) increases from next year on vehicles that have been sold since April 2001.

They are so stupid that they think increasing road tax proportionate to CO2 emmissions on vehicles that have already been in use since 2001 will help reduce pollution. Of course the reality is that they just pi**ed off 9 million motorists because not only do they face increased road tax but their vehicle has effectively been devalued and made more difficult to sell because of the higher tax.... so instead of possibly changing them for less polluting cars they will have to hold on to them longer.
I think that it's time for the re-release of a song from 1978 by a band called Jilted John.... it's called Gordon is a Moron
www.gordonisamoron.co.uk

Just collected a new TDC sensor so will get it fitted and hope for the best

Martin
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 09:25:09 am by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 09:43:42 am »

Shocked it back into life yesterday evening with an aerosol defibrillator.... a shot of Easy Start in to the air intake after the air filter and the engine was running before the computer and sensors woke up to tell it that it shouldn't be  Cheesy

Fitted a new TDC Sensor and it fired up first time.... and again this morning  Grin  Although I won't hold my breath because 18 months ago I had similar problems starting, changed the TDC sensor and it was fine for a few days, then had trouble starting again and it turned out to be a leaking injector.

So guess that only time and a few more miles will determine whether the problem is actually cured or if I'm going to have to dig deep into the pockets again for the joy of owning an Espace  Wink

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 10:29:44 am »

She just had a bad day and needed a massage.... Remember to give her a kiss every morning and a good body rub with polish from time to time, and she may keep on serving you. Of course, you never know... after all, she is french! Grin
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2008, 08:47:15 pm »

Fitted a new TDC Sensor and it fired up first time....
Our car got a new TDC sensor fitted by Renault in DK, only to see them fit yet another one a year later (which they did without charging time, as they acknowledged the obviously poor fitting)

Roy once told me they had developed a new procedure to fit a new TDC sensor, so the new connections made better contact, as their customers seemed to frequently return to the garages with TDC faults.

I think they cut the wiring and crimped the whole thing on, - making sure the elements couldn't get to the contacts.

As far as I know, Roy is not in the country for the moment, but it might prove useful to get his view.

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
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Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2008, 10:15:35 am »

I remember you mentioning this before Lennart but when I telephoned my local friendly Renault dealer parts manager (whom I have got to know really well Wink) he checked my vehicle VIN to determine if I required the TDC kit to include a sub-harness. Amongst the modifications and upgrades made to the TDC sensor over time they had changed the connector to one more resilient to the elements.
However, being one of the last Romorantin built Espace's mine was already factory equipped with the latest connector so I only needed a new TDC sensor (which also comes with a new retaining clip).

In order to fit the latest sensor to earlier 2.2dCi's it's necessary to cut the two wires to the old style connector and splice in the new fly-lead with the new connector.

But IMHO they should supply the sensor along with a fitting guide because had it not been for previous comments picked up from the forum and having an old copy of Dialogys to refer to, I wouldn't have known, and nor would the majority of DIY mechanics, just how close the sensor should be set to the flywheel.

Martin
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 08:05:57 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2008, 10:07:51 am »

I seem to have cured 3 problems in one go..... not only has the new TDC sensor cured the bad starting problem, I am no longer getting air bag warnings...... AND..... an annoying squeak that I've been getting intermittently for over a year, and couldn't locate, also seems to have gone.

I can't be sure what the cure to the air-bag warning problem was because of the timing of the two main issues. It definitely wasn't the connections under the seat because I still got the warning after checking those. As Tom suggested I also checked the connectors next to the BII but no sign of any problem there. I hadn't got to checking the connections to the air-bag module when the starting problem overtook me and having run the battery well down trying to get the car started I gave it a full charge and have since not had the air-bag warning!! So, whether it was a poor connection next to the BII even though they seemed perfect or whether it was a low voltage issue that having a fully charged battery cured I don't know.... but at least the problem is no more.

As for the squeak.... it seems that taking the seats off their mounts was worthwhile even though it didn't immediately solve the air-bag warning issue, because after refitting them I don't appear to any longer have that annoyance. The seat rails are mounted on plastic spacers/pillars and I guess that they may have settled/compressed slightly over time (due to being subject to excess cargo load from my backside Roll Eyes) so re-tightening the rails down fully appears to have cured the squeak.

Deep Joy  Cheesy

Martin

« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 10:10:21 am by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
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