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Author Topic: 2.2 dCI (2002) - general question about performance  (Read 13464 times)
ianP
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« on: July 11, 2008, 10:47:41 am »

Hi All,  I'm very new to the world of the espace (purchased my 2002 2.2 Dci 'the race' on Monday)...  kind of mixed feelings about it at the moment  Undecided...  I've owned turbo diesel cars now for about 10 or so years and am quite used to the usual characteristics (the normal TD turbo lag, etc),  but - for some reason, the espace seems to feel quite underpowered.  I know - it's a beast of a machine and there's no comparing it to a 'normal' cars performance.

From my experience so far though, it seems to feel quite 'van' like (the engine I mean) -  rather rustic..  and forgive me if this is just showing my ignorance here, but I anticipated the dci to be a more refined engine than a transit.   It seam very noisy (especially under load at lower revs),  and it just doesn't feel at all responsive.  I can't explain this any better, but I 'know' it's capable of better responsiveness - there seems to be something holding it back.  The harder the accelerator is pressed, the more it seams to be held back...  there's also a kind of 'stutter' sometimes if I accelerate a bit harshly where the power seems to momentarily drop off - then it picks up again.  I've had issues like this in the past (think it was a dodgy air flow meter)??

Now - I may just be describing the characteristics of all of your Dci's out there (which I'm  hoping to be true) - but, for some reason, I doubt it.   Could anyone give a comparisson to the above - at least I'll then know whether to take up the issues with the dealer (or a garage) if it is out of the ordinary...  are your Dci's smooth, quiet, responsive (say in comparison to a 'normal TD car')..

A few other niggles (well - will probably turn out to be more than niggles if the renault dealer gets hold of it  Wink) -

  • The radio / CD does not work - pressing the on/off button for the prescribes 2 seconds or so but nothing - no change on the dash - no sound - nothing.  The remote doesn't work (but obviously won't if the radio's had it)
  • Theres an airbag warning on when I first switch on the ignition - beeps -  it then goes away when I start driving (not sure if the 'problem' goes away - or whether the system checks are just done at start up - ovbiously that beeeeeep would be quite annoying if it were constantly on! - ovbiously worrying if I'm running about with no airbags!
  • a 'very very' high pitched whine when depressing the accelerator - barely audible - it's that high - it kind of sounds like a turbo whine but higher - but is happening when I would'nt expect the turbo to be operating (no load at all) - (I've had some TDs where the turbo while was very pronounced, others have been silent)

And that's it at the moment - I've had it for a week and am kind of regreting buying it to be honest,  and after reading some of the posts on this forum I feel even worse!  Don't get me wrong, it's a very impressive 'car' - but I'm concerned that this may be just the start of the problems...

Could anybody offer some assistance for any of these points?  It would be very much appreciated...  should it be returned to the dealer while I have the chance or should I stick with it and start investigating the issues (I'm assuming to put the issues above right will cost £100's)

Thanks in advance,
Ian

(like the forum by the way).

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Ian Powell

2002 Renault Grand Espace 2.2dci "the Race"

2004 mini cooper
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2008, 01:33:16 pm »

Hi Ian

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not an expert on the 2.2dci, but I do know enough to confirm that what you are experiencing is not normal. It's supposed to feel powerful, quick and quiet.

Merely conveying other people's experiences, I would think that the most possible cause for the lack of power you are experiencing is the EGR-valve. This valve returns exhaust gasses into the inlet - this improves mileage and emissions, but obviously also reduces power, so the engine management system shuts the valve off when you rev it high or push the throttle.

The problem is that these valves become dirty inside (there's a recent thread about this), and eventually it will not close completely any more. This will effectively limit the amount of power the engine can produce!

As for the sound you are hearing, I suggest you try having the EGR valve replaced or cleaned first. It may fix it, but it could also be various other things. Having had a car where the timing belt was overtensioned and eventually broke, I'm always a bit worred about "whining" sounds as that's exactly the sound an incorrectly fitted belt will produce. So you may want to check that too.

Otherwise, I hope some of the DCI experts here will add some info. I'm sure you'll find plenty of good advice here!

Good luck,
Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2008, 01:46:13 pm »

...just to add - reading a forum like this IS reading about problems, that is the nature of such forum.

The airbag lamp is most probably the common connector problems under front seats. A "Renault wide" problem.

Concerning radio, check fuses - the OFF message is generated by display and comes if radio is absent or off.

Clean the EGR, re-fit it, clear fault codes and then disconnect it. Not a "by the book" solution but it has proven to be a well functioning solution.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
ianP
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2008, 03:00:43 pm »

Hi guys,  thanks so much for the quick responses (I had a good feeling about this forum  Grin)...  First point,  really sorry - didn't mean to dis your forum - I know the only real reason for such a forum is to report issues and hopefully help others resolve them...  the problem is, I found myself reading all the various problems and completely freeking myself out!  Shocked... I need to calm down.

I'll pop over to the other thread to have a look at the EGR-valve issue.. it's really encouraging that the car IS supposed to perform like a modern car rather than a 1992 ford transit with 300,000 miles on the clock!  (mine's done 58,000 by the way)

The radio / stereo - yes, it does say OFF. 

I've contacted the garage where I bought the car and they're taking it in to 'have a look at it'... 

Anyway,  thanks again for the help

Will post back with an update.

Thanks,
Ian.
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Ian Powell

2002 Renault Grand Espace 2.2dci "the Race"

2004 mini cooper
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2008, 05:22:21 pm »

Hi guys,  thanks so much for the quick responses (I had a good feeling about this forum  Grin)...  First point,  really sorry - didn't mean to dis your forum - I know the only real reason for such a forum is to report issues and hopefully help others resolve them...  the problem is, I found myself reading all the various problems and completely freeking myself out!  Shocked... I need to calm down.

Quite understandible... I guess all cars have problems, unfortunately our belowed Espace's aren't exactly the least problematic ones around, but we try to share experiences so the problems can be fixed. And when you get down to it, they aren't that bad actually.

Besides, it's just a great car to drive, no matter whether you'll be doing daily shopping and dropping kids off at school, or taking a long jurney for a holiday.

A 2.2 dci should certainly NOT feel like an old Transit Wink - but tell the garage about the EGR, and if they have experience with modern diesels, they will probably know what you're talking about and fix it for you.

Cheers,
Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
ianP
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2008, 08:56:31 pm »

Well - just got the EGR valve out no problems, and yes - well sooted up.  I've been at it for an hour now with some abrasive wool, wd40, petrol, etc...  will resume in the morning.   I reckon I could make a small cup cake with the amount of carbon that's come off it (wouldn't want to eat it though!)...  Whether this is my problem or not it can only help. 

Thanks again for the advice and great photos, they helped a lot.

(girlfriends laptop now covered in carbon deposits - she's not going to be happy)   Grin...

Regards,
Ian

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Ian Powell

2002 Renault Grand Espace 2.2dci "the Race"

2004 mini cooper
paul-g
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2008, 09:20:05 pm »

Hi Ian, looks like you're on the way to getting things sorted, the'yre a great bunch on this forum with lots of help, the espace is a great car  and this forum should help restore you're faith in it.
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2008, 10:46:12 pm »

(girlfriends laptop now covered in carbon deposits - she's not going to be happy)

 Shocked

I think you both will be happy tomorrow when you have a 'new' car!! Cheesy
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2008, 10:50:38 pm »

Laptop is a tool  Grin
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
ianP
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2008, 12:10:32 pm »

Hi,  I've cleaned up the EGR-valve -  as I said, it was very sooted up.  It's very clean now...  I've replaced it fine - BUT - the problem seems even worse now!  Even less responsiveness,  virtually no turbo boost and very rought (and noisy)...

I'm assuming I coudln't have made this worse by cleaning the valve? (obviously I haven't been able to clean the housing)...  -  could the valve be defective?

I've had a test run with the EGR unplugged - and it performs exactly the same...  what does this mean?....  I'm assuming the valve is open by default (exhaust coming in but no turbo boost) - unplugging should keep the valve open at all times, so obviously no boost when it's floored (am I right)?

If this is that case, doesn't this mean the valve's not working properly - not closing (when plugged in of course).  Or - more scary - that there's not actually any turbo boost to pass through the closed EGR in the first place!

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Ian,   

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Ian Powell

2002 Renault Grand Espace 2.2dci "the Race"

2004 mini cooper
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2008, 02:15:34 pm »

Hi,  I've cleaned up the EGR-valve -  as I said, it was very sooted up.  It's very clean now...  I've replaced it fine - BUT - the problem seems even worse now!  Even less responsiveness,  virtually no turbo boost and very rought (and noisy)...

I'm sorry to hear this wasn't a straight success. You have cleared a problem, but there's obviously another one still there Sad

It could be a leak in the exhaust?
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
ianP
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2008, 05:40:56 pm »

Hi Anders,  thanks for the advice so far...  very much appreciated.    It's going back to the dealer tomorrow (to look at the engine problem, airbag fault and stereo)..   would you advise me to leave it there, walk away and find another espace?  it seem from other threads and post, that when these problems start, they seem to keep reacurring  - over and over again and it seems that people lose faith and trust in their vehicles (I'm driving to France from the uk next week and would really hate to break down out there)...  the most sickening thing is I exchanged for a 1.9td citroen   which didn't give me a days problems in the 11 years I owned it!

I believe the dealer will be taking it to local garage also, and I'm doubtful whether they have the experience / equipment to find the engine fault (after reading this forum it seems to be something of a black art that only a few of you special people out there have mastered!!!)

  Now don;t get offended by this - but - with the obvious reliability issues the espace was 'born' with..  why are there so many people out there sticking with them (and it seems spending absolute furtunes on reparing them?Huh)... why should I just not sell out and get a VW (or a Ford  Wink )?

I want be in your gang - honest...  but I'm not sure I can take the pain   Cry


Regards,
Ian
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Ian Powell

2002 Renault Grand Espace 2.2dci "the Race"

2004 mini cooper
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2008, 10:25:59 pm »

Hi Ian

You have been lucky with your Citroen Smiley - around here, all French cars are known for giving their owners 'challenges' Wink

But, I understand your bad feelings about getting this kind of problems with a car you just bought.

The thing with the 2.2 dci is that it's a modern technology diesel. They do have more problems than the old diesel engines. And that applies to all of the new tech diesels - even Mercedes. But they are great engines with none of the drawbacks of the older diesels: They are powerful, give loads of torque, wonderfully economical etc.

All in all I wouldn't doubt a second which one I'd choose, and it would be a modern one. I'd prepare myself for a little higher cost-of-ownership in exchange for a lively car - which yours should also be!

I think the best advice I can give you is to give it a chance and let the dealer/garage try to fix the problem. Then decide from there if you want to keep the car or not. Diagnosing the problem isn't a black art, but the mechanic does need to know what he's dealing with. Some Renault dealers apparantly don't, I'm afraid, so it's not just a question about going to an official dealership, but at least they would have the proper tools and documentation.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

- Anders Cool
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
johnbuz
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2008, 02:00:34 pm »

I would second that comment about the correct tools to diagnose faults. Many places have the tools but haven't got a clue how to use them!

I have booked my 2.2Dci into a recommended Bosch agent who is familiar with the 'modern' diesel technology, is hands on with them everyday, and can actually understand what the diagnostic tools are telling him. Many others just keep replacing parts until the problem goes away, resulting in a hefty bill.

It is very easy to just go out and buy a box of tricks to diagnose problems, the skill comes in being able to interpret the faults and not be led up the garden path by them, skill and experience are far superior to the 'computer says..............x,y and z' mentality that some garages have.

John
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2008, 04:32:30 pm »

.....and some problems will never show on diagnostics neither as faultcodes or status and live readings. Konventional tools and knowledge is in addition very important.
First know how it is supposed to work, then you are able to fix it. If you dont know how it is supposed to work you will never fix it unless by pure luck.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
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