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Author Topic: Sorry to the purists! Murena 2.0 !!  (Read 23547 times)
michaltalbot
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« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2009, 08:55:53 am »

Of course - to implant next 2 hands could also have only advantages, but than you will look like a spider  Smiley and not like a human, the same is with Murena.
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Oetker
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« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2015, 10:36:00 am »

After some time with a Belgium owner sold to Classic trader for around 4000 Euro.
Now for much more for sale here.

http://link.marktplaats.nl/m890189475

It's all biz, but I think it will not sell for some time.
This cars are not in the market overhere.

Herman
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 10:38:12 am by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2015, 06:42:49 pm »

Roy.
Earlier in this thread you wrote that Matra had originally wanted the fuel injected Renault 2 engine for the Murena.
Would this engine fit the Murena without major modifications to engine mounts? Also, which transmission was to have been used?
Just curious  Grin
/Jon
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Matranaut par excellence Cool
Oetker
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« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2015, 06:54:47 pm »

Some people over here build in a Peugeot 1.9 GTI engine, but you need the 1.6 for that.
In all cases I know, they used the gearbox that comes with the engine.

Done bij Carjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lur3NqDtzBk

Anther example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO08VuK2GtU

Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
jlg
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« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2015, 01:24:59 am »

According to Andre Dewael's Murena book, Matra intended to use the Douvrin engine (moteur J6) in its 2l version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douvrin_engine

This engine was used in the CitroŽn CX 20 and the Matra archive pictures in the book show a Douvrin engine with a CX sump (e.g. includes the support for the prop shaft ball bearing and the engine mount on the sump). The CX has its engine mount points in a similar set-up to the 2.2 Murena: end of gearbox, sump on the distribution side and top of cylinder head.

This engine was later upgraded to 2.2l in the CX 22 TRS:
http://www.stopieces-auto.fr/178838-moteur-citroen-cx-4p-serie-2-0785-0689.html




On the second picture, the lower and top engine mount points can be seen.

IMHO, the easiest way to put this engine in a 2.2 Murena would be to source engine+gearbox from a CX 22 TRS and adapt the rest.  
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 01:30:35 am by jlg » Logged
Oetker
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« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2015, 07:21:32 am »

The Douvrin engine development also goes back to the 60s.
112 HP so no gain mounting this one.
I saw this engine once in a Citroen garage and saw the familiar mounting of it, altough not exactly the same.
If I ever want to replace the engine, I put in a 1.6 Murena engine.
I have much more fun with my 1.6 then my 2.2
It's lighter and handle much better.
a little less power is easy compensated.
There are 1.6 Murena's that run out a S easy with a fast cam and other carbs.
The 1.6 engine is more reliable and  you must be realy rough driver to kill it.
I did 400.000 miles with this engines in 2 Simca 1100 and that was with the paddle on the ground.
the Germans call this engine unkaputtbar

Herman
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 07:25:33 am by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
krede
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« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2015, 09:38:01 am »

I wouldn't go to the trouble of swapping a healthy 2.2. It can be made to produce plenty of power for such an old car. spare parts are still available for the 2.2, and not overly expensive.
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Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2015, 11:31:37 am »

I wouldn't go to the trouble of swapping a healthy 2.2. It can be made to produce plenty of power for such an old car. spare parts are still available for the 2.2, and not overly expensive.

True   Smiley
I have refurbished my 2.2 (serious challenges post) and in the process installed a Holbay 58C cam. I have not had an opportunity to tune it properly, but I feel plenty of power already.  Grin
I have the fuel injection intake manifold for it too and the people who ground the cam say they can install it and make it work. I have all the needed parts, so one day... Cool
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Matranaut par excellence Cool
Lanng
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Its complicated...


« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2015, 04:17:48 pm »

Some dutch mechanics put a Saab 9000 2.0 Turbo unit into a Murena. I think the rebuild the rear of the car - for trackday purpose. I found the link to their website but lost it Sad

Another engine worth concidering is the Mitsu 2.0 V6 6a12 MIVEC engine - a small but high reving powerfull powerplant.

I have a "spare" Bagheera rearend and thought (at some time in this or the next life) experiment with a Saab B234 (transverse) or B202 (longditudal) engine swap since I already have both Saab engines as spare Smiley . It will result in a +20% power increase but to be used only on trackdays.

As for the Danish law regarding engineswap; it is not as strict as some think. If the car is 1984 or older you can get away with almost "anything" as long as the car keeps within the 20% power increase - even adding a subframe and new engine. After 1984 there are some issus regarding emissions.
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Oetker
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« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2015, 05:00:08 pm »

The Murena with the Saab turbo engine is running in Germay now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwoVktQIVzM

Powertest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxgnkNE4szc

Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Lanng
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Its complicated...


« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2015, 05:19:07 pm »

Found the link to the Murena 2.0 Turbo project. The one in the youtube clip above.

http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/wobbe98/library/whpracing?sort=3&start=all&page=1

Enjpy Smiley or scream in terror Sad

/// Lanng
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roy4matra
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« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2015, 07:08:17 pm »

Roy.
Earlier in this thread you wrote that Matra had originally wanted the fuel injected Renault 2 engine for the Murena.
Would this engine fit the Murena without major modifications to engine mounts? Also, which transmission was to have been used?
Just curious  Grin
/Jon

It is known that Matra wanted the Peugeot/Renault Douvrin engine as it was more modern, fuel injected and with the block made in light alloy.  There is even a picture of this engine mated to a finned alloy sump, presumably from when they were trialling during development.  This is in the Murena book by Andre Dewael, but the engine is shown without any transmission.  I would imagine it would have had a slightly modified Peugeot or Renault transaxle as these would have already been fitted to that engine in one of their models.

Now I have driven both the Murena 2.2 and the Espace 2.2 extensively, so I have experience of both engines.  I am glad now that Renault refused Matra the Douvrin engine, for a few reasons.  First is that the Chrysler/Simca engine uses a duplex chain drive to the overhead cam whilst the Douvrin has a 'modern' belt drive, which always requires periodic replacement, and even then they can break unexpectedly, damaging the engine top end extensively and usually with great cost!  Imagine having to change that belt every 80,000 kms in the Murena.  No thanks.

Second, whilst fuel injected engines now can be reliable and better in many ways, back in 1981 they were not always so reliable and in the long term (30 years plus now) imagine trying to get a new injection computer or some of its sensors, when they go wrong - I have obtained some second hand spares for my Espace as I know they are simply not available.  In the same way many of todays cars electronics will be difficult if not impossible to obtain in even 20 years time, so todays cars will be unlikely to last as long as our Murena.  In fact from experience I can tell you it is already happening.  With regular maintenance and the simple carb. fed engine I expect my Murena engine could easily last 500,000 kms or more and last almost as long as I need it.  I know of some Murena that have already done 400,000 km.  (just returned from a fast run to Paris, for Retromobile, in mine where it performed well and topped 30 mpg)

The 2.2 Murena engine is over-square which is better than the under-square Douvrin when it comes to revability, and if you have to take the head off the Murena is an easy engine to work on.  I speak as a seasoned technician that has worked on all types of vehicles for nearly 50 years, and the Murena really is an easy car to work on especially considering it is mid-engined.  The Douvrin has wet liners that are held in place by the cylinder head, so you have to be careful when removing the head otherwise they come out of their lower seal and coolant floods into the sump and you have more work to rebuild the engine.

The engine blow up that started this topic probably would have caused any engine forced to 8,000 rpm or more, to fail but in general I believe the Murena 2.2 engine is generally a reliable one if it is well maintained, with the one exception of the cylinder head cracking and this is still something I haven't got to the bottom of yet.  Originally since I had had no trouble with my own engine, I believed it was down to careless owners who had let a coolant leak cause overheating and therefore the cracked heads.  In many cases I still think this is the main cause, and it is not helped by the mid-engined location of an engine never designed for that installation.  Strictly it should have had a water pump with increased capacity to increase cooling especially at low revs, and the car should have had a coolant level sensor to warn of any drop in coolant long before it could cause any problems.

However, I will say that good maintenance and quality products are a main factor.  I have always used fully synthetic oil in my engines and this helps tremendously.  I have always maintained my car to the highest standard and with the best products even if they cost a bit more as it pays you back in the long run.  Sealed cooling systems, as I have said many times, should NEVER lose ANY coolant, so if the level has to be topped up even the slightest, there is a problem and it needs to be traced and rectified.  I have found over the years this is one of the most common items ignored by owners and it is the root cause of many instances of overheating.

However, there may be another cause of the heads cracking that I am still trying to evaluate as a possibility.  Stress cracking owing to local hot spots.  One possible solution to this may be waterless coolant and it is something I plan to trial.

Regarding the mounting of the Douvrin engine in the Murena, I don't know what they had planned but the engine has the similar side of block mounting points that the Chrysler/Simca engine has, so they would have had to devise another way to mount them as there are no chassis mounting points near the sides of the block.  Probably they would have used similar sump and gearbox mountings to what was designed for the Chrysler/Simca engine.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 08:05:32 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Oetker
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« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2015, 08:08:50 pm »

Quote Roy.
-------------
However, there may be another cause that I am still trying to evaluate as a possibility.
=====================================================

Some things that pass my mind.
Vacume?
The engines I took apart showed huge diferencences in the amount of coal in the chambers.
Sometimes cilinders had a realy lean burn.

Did the Turbo engine had this trouble to when mounted in a Peugeot?
It was hanging freely in the front of 505 getting more air to cool down where the Murena engine is locked away in the mid section.
As I can recall the oil pump also generated problems in fast corners.

There are to much cracked head from Murena's.
Thre must be a cause to that.
Picture from one Murena owner with 4 spare heads,
All 4 cracked from the mid exhaust valves to the water channel.

pic Katzedeamon

One from a fellow member.
Cracks at the same place.



I am also curieus why this happen so often.
There must be something structural wrong with this heads or secundairy circumstances that cause it.

Herman
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 08:17:44 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
roy4matra
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« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2015, 06:10:40 pm »

Quote Roy.
-------------
However, there may be another cause that I am still trying to evaluate as a possibility.
=====================================================

Some things that pass my mind.
Vacume?

The engines I took apart showed huge diferencences in the amount of coal in the chambers.
Sometimes cilinders had a realy lean burn.

Yes, that is one possibility Herman, and a good one in some respects.  As I said previously, in all my own cars I have not had a head cracked, but I have seen it with many others cars.  So this raises a question why?  Now it may be that as I attend to any faults quickly, such as a leak on the headlamp vacuum system which would cause lean running and high cylinder temperatures; or a loss of coolant; both which could lead to cracking, are eliminated.  So good maintenance will be a factor here.

Quote
Did the Turbo engine had this trouble to when mounted in a Peugeot?
It was hanging freely in the front of 505 getting more air to cool down where the Murena engine is locked away in the mid section.

Whilst the mid-engined location probably means higher engine bay temperatures, if the cooling system is in good condition I know it can cope as my cars have run fine without problems over many years.  However, going back to the fact of high cylinder temperatures - another reason for this can be people using non-standard air intake systems.  You often see people who have dispensed with the original air filter and intake, especially if they have converted to twin side-draught carbs. such as Weber DCOE or Dell'Orto DHLA but with 'pancake' air filters.  The original 'S' used the same type of air filter as the standard car, and the air pick up is low down to get cool air.  Using pancake filters on the carbs. or none at all, means drawing hot air from the top of the engine bay and that will not be good for the engine - it will mean higher cylinder temperatures and less power as the hot air is less condense with consequently lower oxygen.

Quote
As I can recall the oil pump also generated problems in fast corners.

Whilst the oil pressure does drop slightly in long fast right hand corners, this has never caused a problem with mine, and should affect the things that are oiled, first, such as main and big-end bearings, and should have almost no effect on the cylinder head.  Plus, as I have always said, use a really good oil - at least semi-synthetic - I have always used fully synthetic, and even the lower pressure in those corners is still over 2.5 bar and that is plenty for an engine to keep it lubricated well.

Quote
There are too much cracked head from Murena's.
Thre must be a cause to that.

Yes I agree, but I think in a large number of cases it is down to those things I have already mentioned: poor maintenance, letting the coolant drop, running with leaks in the headlamp vacuum system, using pancake air filters breathing at the very hot top of the engine bay, etc.  Other factors may be running too much anti-freeze or not enough, having a slack vee-belt that slips so the water pump does not pump correctly, or allowing the radiator to become too silted, not changing the thermostat and coolant often enough...

Quote
Pictures of various Murena cylinder heads...

I am also curieus why this happen so often.
There must be something structural wrong with this heads or secundairy circumstances that cause it.

Herman

Again I agree, the heads always crack in the same areas, which makes it easy to check them as you always know where to look first! Smiley

However, whilst a lot may be down to poor maintenance, I also think there might be a contributing factor in the head casting design.  If there are 'shapes' in the internal design that cause 'hot pockets', i.e. small steam bubbles, to form; these will cause local overheating even though the overall coolant level may be fine.  The heat can only transfer to the coolant as long as it stays in contact with the metal.  If you get a steam bubble form in a pocket, the heat transfer immediately stops or drops drastically, and this can lead to stress cracking in those areas.  This is why I am going to investigate using waterless coolant.  Even if the local pockets still run slightly hotter, the waterless coolant will not form a gas pocket as it does not boil until it reaches 180 degrees, and any engine that hot would have seized anyway!  So the liquid will remain in contact and heat transfer will still take place.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 06:22:42 pm by roy4matra » Logged

variator
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-83 Matra Murena 2.2


« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2015, 08:12:52 pm »

Could there be a benefit in using lead substitute in gasoline to get combustion temperature down?
These cylinder heads have been created when gasoline was added lead, this was done both to lubricate the valves / valve seats and to keep the temperature down in the combustion chamber.

I know that the Murena CAN run on unleaded petrol, but I always use to add lead replacement when I fill up the tank with 98 octane unleaded gasoline.
It is not certain it's necessary, but I do not think that it has a harmful effect !?
The development of valve seats and aluminum alloys has certainly evolved over the latest 35 years.
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2001 Saab 9-5 2,3T, 1981 Porsche 928, 1981 Honda cb 900 F, 1968 Triumph Trophy TR6R, 1986 Yamaha RD 350 YPVS
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