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Author Topic: 2001 2.2 dci The Race - cutting off problems  (Read 12047 times)
RPettitt
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« on: April 22, 2009, 04:40:55 pm »

Hi

This is my first time posting here, but i've been following the posts since i picked up my Espace just after christmas this year.

I've started to experience an usual problem.

I went on 140 mile round trip journey to Nottingham and back Saturday before last.

The 70 mile there was fine - although it is probably the furthest i have travelled in the car in one non-stop journey since i got it.

I was about 2-3 miles into my journey home and the car just seemed to power out. The electrics seemed to be fine, but the car just stopped ticking over. Worst of all it was on a busy A road.

I managed to get the car started again and it seemed to be ticking over fine. I could rev it in first and it wasn't cutting out, but once i put it in gear and got going it did about 200 yards and it cut out again - did the same about 3 times until i managed to pull off the main road.

I rang the AA (which i had luckily bought the day before) and they did the usual tests and couldn't find the problem. The battery was fine and it ticked over fine the full 30-40 min the chap looked at it.

In the end the AA man unplugged something that it supposed to change the fuel intake when the engine is warmer and he suggested that it might be ok to get home in.

I didn't take the chance and got towed home.

I've ran the car on short journey's since, but my wife had it cut out on her in a similar way a few days ago and i'm struggling to find a local  garage with the diagnostic kit save the main costly dealer.

Has anyone had any similar problems or have any clues as to what might be the cause of the problem?
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Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2009, 11:23:50 pm »

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Are there any service records that came with the car to indicate when it was last serviced?.... but more specifically when it last had the diesel filter changed? If the filter has been on for a long time it may be at the point of not allowing sufficient fuel through... enough for the engine to idle but insufficient when demand increases.

Before thinking of changing the filter however, it would be worthwhile opening the drain cock at the bottom of the fuel filter body and collecting what comes out to check for water (condensation) or sediment.

If you drain much out then you will need to prime the system again. Turn off the fuel line on the yellow coloured connector to the filter by rotating the outer casing and then switch on the ignition to position one. You should then hear the electric low pressure fuel pump that is located under the centre of the vehicle near the fuel tank on the drivers side of a right hand drive. That should run for 30 seconds before auto shut off if the engine isn't started and will have re-primed the fuel system. Don't then forget to turn the yellow tap back on. It's worth listening for the low pressure pump because that could also be the problem due to being tired and supplying insufficient fuel or poor electrical connection and intermittently cutting out.

The filter is easily changed if needed as all the connectors and the filter are coloured coded. The filter from Renault is expensive... usually around £25 but Euro Car Parts or GSF (German, Swedish & French) supply cheaper versions

Hope that you get it sorted.

Martin
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 11:32:14 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
roy4matra
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2009, 01:36:45 am »

... and i'm struggling to find a local garage with the diagnostic kit save the main costly dealer.

Has anyone had any similar problems or have any clues as to what might be the cause of the problem?

These are complex systems compared to older diesels and unless you understand them, it is very difficult to explain in a few words just how you should even go about diagnosing faults.  However, the first thing should always be a full diagnostics check, so you can see what faults are being indicated and what fuel pressures you have.  These systems need around 250 to 300 bar fuel rail pressure just to idle and will go up to 1400 bar when running.  So if the pressure is down for whatever reason it simply will not perform properly.  You only need a spec of dirt a quarter of the thickness of the human hair to block certain holes, so you can see that the filter is very important, and as Martin has said, if it hasn't been changed in a while you may need to change it as it could be causing the restriction.  As there is a flow tap on the filter for bleeding the system, if that is not fully in the correct position for running, it could cause a problem.

If an injector leak off is leaking fuel it will drop the pressure sufficiently to cause a problem, and one test is with a set of calibrated bottles to check the leak-offs of all injectors.  It is unlikely a normal garage would have these where a dealer will so whilst the dealer may seem expensive, they are often the only people who will understand or have the equipment to do the job.  However, first you need the diagnostic.  Ask for that and no more if you wish to keep the cost down.  You may then use the results to start to trace the fault.

Whatever you do, do NOT open or slacken any high pressure connection especially when the engine is running.  You can be harmed by the extremely high pressures generated.

Roy
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 10:40:02 pm by roy4matra » Logged

RPettitt
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2009, 07:26:53 pm »

Thanks for the advice

I haven't had a chance to read it all properly yet, but i've printed it off and will have a proper look over this weekend.

thanks

Rob
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Sommerby
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2009, 10:49:09 am »

I had the same symptoms when my fuel pump broke down.  A few weeks before the breakdown the fuel pump  started to get noisy. I could hear it when I put on ignition.  It was a mechanical fault in the pump.  Out of many possible reasons this could also be the issue in your case.

Best Regards
Bo
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Best Regards
Bo
RPettitt
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2009, 11:19:06 am »

Took the car to the garage this morning and the diagnostic machine brought up 7 errors of which the likely culprit is the EGR valve.

I'm going to clean it for now, but does anyone know of anyone who is selling them - other than the Renault dealer and ebay?

thanks
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roy4matra
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2009, 12:08:30 pm »

Took the car to the garage this morning and the diagnostic machine brought up 7 errors of which the likely culprit is the EGR valve.

I'm going to clean it for now...

Whilst it is quite possible that it is badly carboned up and a good clean will be beneficial, I have never heard of one cutting out because of an EGR problem.  So you may find the cutting out problem is still there afterwards.

Roy
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RPettitt
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 04:55:41 pm »

Yes, i suspect that it won't solve the problem, but it needs doing so it's the starting point in guess.

I've found a huge thread on the honest john forum where people seem to have a very similar problem to me (going from 2004ish to date) and still it appears that no one is sure what causes it.

On the way back from the garage the car became very sluggish (took more than 5 seconds to go from 55 to 60 down hill) and then cut out 4 times!

Thanks for the tips so far
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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 08:01:33 pm »

Welcome aboard Mr Pettitt Smiley

What car are we actually talking about ? - J63,    JE "td"   or    JE "dci"   ?
( model overview: http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/history.html )

Cut-outs on dci's can also be caused by a malfunctioning TDC sensor or poor connection to it - however that would normally be accompanied by the zigzag symbol and warning buzzer on the dash - wouldn't it ? - also you said it was happily ticking over, and only cut out under load.

The TDC is however relatively easy to access from below: http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/Gallery1/Med/tdc_g9t.html

Sluggish acceleration must be something else, - EGR most likely, but fuel and airfilters as previously mentioned.

I have also heard from a 2.1td owner that on a long journey the turbo-hose kept coming off - which gave some interesting maneuvers in the middle of French traffic ... :-)


/Lennart

« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 11:15:16 pm by Lennart Sorth » Logged

Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
RPettitt
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2009, 10:35:33 am »

Cut-outs on dci's can also be caused by a malfunctioning TDC sensor or poor connection to it - however that would normally be accompanied by the zigzag symbol and warning buzzer on the dash - wouldn't it ? - also you said it was happily ticking over, and only cut out under load.

Hi Lennart

It's the JE DCI and what you have described above is exactly what happens. The car becomes sluggish then the above happens. So it looks like a have quite a few this to sort  Cheesy

Thank you for the advice


Rob

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RPettitt
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2009, 03:21:29 pm »

Hi all

Thanks for your help so far.

I started to check out other forums including honest john, renaultforums and parkers amongst other and this appears to be a common problem. I'm not exactly sure where to start to be honest because everyone has a different opinion on it, so far i have seen the following suggestions:

- Replace TDC sensor and wire
- Check parts are earthed properly and wires are not touching
- Replace air and fuel filters
- Replace fuel pump and injectors
- Replace solenoid

The problem is that there doesn't appear to be any general consensus on what causes the problem and i can' really afford to do the more expensive things so i think i might just get it back to the dealer  Cry

For interest the following threads have the biggest discussions on the issue:

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=24466&m=614963

http://www.renaultforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=25719


Rob
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Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2009, 04:06:11 pm »

Some thoughts for you Rob.

If the air filter was badly blocked enough to cause the problems you are having you would also have very little power even when it was running because the engine would be getting insufficient air.
In any case just 3 screws out of the air filter housing cover will reveal the state or otherwise of the air filter but if you don't know when the vehicle was last serviced would it take any harm to fit a fresh air fllter?

Similarly if you change the fuel filter it's a routine service item anyway and it can't do any harm to know that you have a fresh filter.... and then that's 2 potential issues looked at and ruled out even if you do still then have to end up taking it to the dealer.

As for the TDC sensor.  That is a fairly common item to give trouble especially on the earlier 2.2dCi's. Later ones had a modified connector. By giving your registration or VIN to the dealer they will be able to tell you which TDC sensor your vehicle would require. If it already has the latest connector you just get a sensor and spring retaining clip but if the vehicle has the early connector then the TDC sensor kit comes with a new connector that needs the two wires splicing into the existing wiring and the kit comes with an instruction leaflet. The sensor is about £22 and providing you have access to some ramps or axles stands it is easy enough to change yourself and would rule out another issue even if it didn't cure the problem. A Renault dealer would probably charge around £65 for the parts and labour to fit it but would try to get you to have a diagnostic first and then you'd be in to a total of £120/£130

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2009, 07:02:38 pm »

RPettitt, I'm in a similar situation to you, and I've also had a similar problem to you. Now I have another one. HAHAHA!
My first problem was the TDC sensor. The car refused to start despite grinding the starter motor, and sometimes it just cut out. I fixed that by changing the TDC sensor. It was a very easy job to do, once you can get under the car.
Read more here: http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1281.0.html

However, right now I've got an intermittent problem (described here: http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1349.0.html), but just like you. I've received a lot of helpful hints from this forum, especially Roy, but I just don't seem to be able to do anything about the issues. End result is the car is not being used, nor fixed.  Cry I'm hoping that I'll find some time this weekend to start going over the list of things to try. I feel quite bad about having received top tips but not done anything about them. Sorry to all who've helped!

Do the things that Martin has suggested (I need to do air filter and fuel filter too) and then do the TDC sensor. It's an easy fix if you can raise the car and it might fix all of your problems.

Good luck!
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Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
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roy4matra
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2009, 01:49:58 pm »

I started to check out other forums including honest john, renaultforums and parkers amongst other and this appears to be a common problem. I'm not exactly sure where to start to be honest because everyone has a different opinion on it, so far i have seen the following suggestions:

- Replace TDC sensor and wire
- Check parts are earthed properly and wires are not touching
- Replace air and fuel filters
- Replace fuel pump and injectors
- Replace solenoid

The problem is that there doesn't appear to be any general consensus on what causes the problem...

That's because there is not just one reason for this 'cutting out problem' and every vehicle is likely to be different Rob.  This is why it can take time and cost a great deal to correctly diagnose what is causing the problem on any vehicle - you have to use the Clip or test equipment and do some diagnosis, perform many tests and when you have collected all the data and studied the readouts, make your decision as to where the fault really lies.  It is the major reason why even the dealer workshops can be poor - it always depends on how good the technician is at diagnosis.

Any other system is just guesswork and you will end up spending a lot of money on trial and error remedies.  It is no use for instance, spending money and fitting a new TDC sensor if the fault is in a fuel injector...

Collecting the information is always the first priority.

Roy
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 01:51:37 pm by roy4matra » Logged

RPettitt
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2009, 06:23:53 pm »

just to update my diagnostic error codes are:

1814 EGR recirculation circuit deviation
182A Control Unit Distribut. Voltage Too Low
183E Immobilizer bloacked (i thnk this is disconnected - and hopefully the reason for injection warning light on start up)
1801 Coolant Temperature Sensor Signal Improbable
1813 Main Relay Switch Pt Too Early
1826 Glow Relay Over Current

I don't know if any of these have any thing to do with the actual problem, but they can only assist.

And like thejoker i have to say thank you for taking your time out to help me with something that i would have no chance of sorting on my own - Thanks

Rob
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