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Author Topic: Espace 24v ZF 4HP20 ( LM0 ) OIL TYPE when changing  (Read 33736 times)
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2009, 08:50:13 am »

Hooray! It looks very good indeed! Congratulations with a job very well done! Cheesy

I remember your problems with jerky running and you suspected the spark plugs. I'm very glad to hear they are fully solved now. It makes sense that it was the torque converter which was to blame. In addition to the converter, it contains a mechanical lockup clutch which is activated by inverting the flow of oil inside the converter. It even attempts to implement a "limited slip" feature by carefully adjusting the oil pressure.

So pressure problems could have lead to all sorts of problems. Did you ever find any fault codes in the diagnosis system?

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2009, 10:12:03 am »

Never had any fault codes on the automatic transmission other than low computer supply voltage a couple of times (but always measured OK with multimeter and engine running). Engine ecu only came up with richness correction fault all the time. According to a Renault tech i know that seems to be a common faultcode on these so they only treat it as a software problem unless the car shows real problems. But i will watch this closely now, to see if it all infact can be traced to a poor gearbox or not. A lot of these have suffered from faulty gearboxes as we know.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2009, 08:53:49 am »

Ouch - my time now  Shocked

It has been a little jerky when cold for some time, and as you, Tom, I've been suspecting ignition problems or other engine management problems. But when it persisted after the engine was switched, I realised that the gearbox might be to blame. And it was. Last week it started shifting "funny" when it was cold, but it went away. Today it went into emergency mode Sad There are no leaks from the box, so I don't think the problem is the same as yours.

I've spoken to ZF Denmark who thinks they can sell a replacement box for about 18k DKK. KG KNUTSSON (I think they were the ones to service yours) in Göteborg wants 18k SEK for a rebuild. But with transport and time it may amount to the same. I've been trying to call GSB in Berlin this morning.

I'm taking the car to the garage now to have any fault codes read out. Then we will make a decision.

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2009, 11:24:01 am »

And it's fixed! Quick, isn't it? Smiley

It turned out to be the round connector on top of the gearbox - it was full of water after the heavy rainfall Thursday and Friday last week. That was cleared, multiple fault codes too - and it's back running perfectly!

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2009, 04:47:23 pm »

KGK is the same that arranged the rebuild of my box, thats correct. Around 18.000 NOK + vat is their average consumer price on rebuilding this box from what my Bosch-friend told me. Workshops normally have a discount on this. The price is very nice imo.

I know about the connector issue, it is really just asking for water by the way it is constructed - but my connector has always been dry and fine. I am very happy for you that it turned out to be that easy fix this time Smiley

My box is now just perfect, and it was well worth every penny compared to how it was driving before. And IF my gearbox did not break down AND i knew how much better it would perform after rebuild, i definitively would have done this rebuild regardless.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
renaultbiler
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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2009, 07:07:06 pm »

...and let me add that i checked the price on an exchange gearbox from Renault in Germany. In total approx 5500 euros + shipping..... Shocked and that is for a gearbox that is factory repaired most probably at ZF just like my box. Grin
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2009, 07:49:59 pm »

...and let me add that i checked the price on an exchange gearbox from Renault in Germany. In total approx 5500 euros + shipping..... Shocked and that is for a gearbox that is factory repaired most probably at ZF just like my box. Grin

That's aboslutely madness, but not surprising knowing the price of spares from Renault.

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
claudesu
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« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2009, 09:53:26 am »

hello,
i'm french guy, i'm pleased to find some other country person liking this car, wich is a bit special.
any way i have the same problem on my espace; i'm interested to know how to take off the gear box without the engine, could tell me how to do it.
thanks
perhaps my english is some time weird, you know i 'm french
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2009, 03:18:09 pm »

i'm french guy, i'm pleased to find some other country person liking this car, wich is a bit special.

Hello Claude and welcome to the forum! Yes it is a special car, and I have never seen a 24v Espace III in France, so it's probably more exotic in it's home country than here in Denmark, where it enjoys some popularity.

I think Tom will give a better answer to your question, but as far as I understand, the job involves twisting the drivechain somewhat down on the gearbox side. But the right engine mount (on the engine) does not need to be removed.

What problems are you having with the car?

Regards,
Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2009, 11:41:42 pm »

It is no problem to take off the gearbox without removing engine - worst part is to remove and put back the TDC sensor because of its location Roll Eyes

I will try to make a small list:

Remove,
- Air filter box and hoses
- battery
- battery surroundings included transmission computer
- both sides inner plastic wing mud covers
- loosen and pull out both driveshafts from the gearbox by removing the 2 big bolts on the damper mountings - you have to loosen the right hand engine mounted driveshaft bearing to pull out the right hand side
- disconnect cooling hoses connected to the gearbox cooler
- disconnect the gearbox electrical connector and put aside the cables
- unclip carefully the gearbox control cable (FRAGILE!! do not twist too much or it may brake off)
- Locate the TDC sensor and loosen it by unscrewing the 10mm bolt (difficult area to work - it will help to take off the control cable mounting)
- take off the body earth strap connected on the gearbox end
- unscrew the converter 3 bolts from underneath (starter plate) by turning the engine for each bolt
- drop the gearbox top mount (strap the engine first) allowing the complete assy to tilt down a few cm
- loosen the 5 bolts connecting gearbox to engine
- pull the gearbox from the engine approx 2-3 cm and drop it down carefully.

It is all about creating enough space so you can locate bolts and removing it without destroying anything. Take your time and you should be okay. Remember the gearbox weight is 90 kg so handle with care!

Use locktite on the converter bolts when putting back together (book says probably to renew them), also measure the triangle metal plate against the engine to make sure it is not bent -creating a twist in the rotation of the converter - it must be straight. Also make sure it is not cracked or damaged.

On the converter center it is a plastic ring - do not loose this one.

I hope some of this is understandeable, but once you start with the job it is pretty much traight forward.

Please come back if you have problems and/or when you are done.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 11:44:24 pm by renaultbiler » Logged

1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
claudesu
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« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2009, 07:37:28 pm »

THANK YOU GUYS FOR YOUR ANWERS
I HAVE TO TAKE MY COURAGE BEFORE DOING IT
ANY WAY MY PROBLEM IS ABOUT THE CONVERTER WHICH IS VERY NOISY AND MAKE A FAULT AFTER A TEN MINUTES RUN; I JUST HAVE TO TURN OFF THE ENGINE AND THEN IT GOES FOR AN OTHER RUN. IT GET REALLY HOT IN THE HOOD.
I JUST WONDER IS IN THE 4 GEAR, IT IS REALLY DIRECT AND NOT USING THE CONVERTER?Huh?

AN OTHER QUESTION
DID YOU EVER THOUGHT ABOUT MODIFYING YOUR ESPACE IN AN ELECTRIC CAR AND GET RID OFF ALL THOSE ENGINE AND GEAR PROBLEME?

I HAVE SEVERAL ADRESS FOR CHEAP PART IF YOU ARE INTEREST LET ME KNOW

THANK YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP
CLAUDE
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claudesu
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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2009, 07:39:47 pm »

http://www.lubexcel.com/71141-bidon-p-280.html

I BOUGHT THIS FOR DRAINING THE GEAR AND THAT WAS CHEAP
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nissenhj
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« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2009, 11:45:25 pm »

It is no problem to take off the gearbox without removing engine - worst part is to remove and put back the TDC sensor because of its location Roll Eyes

I will try to make a small list:


Excuse my bad English!

I just want to say that the best way to change oil in an automatic transmission is using Wynn’s TranServ.
 http://www.wynns.be/product.aspx?nav=2&g=2&s=34&b=68414&p=68414&l=EN

There are 3 TranServ in Sweden. And we bought one last autumn. And this year we have not had to replace a single automatic transmission, or reconditioned.

After oil change becomes the car to drive like a new!

Before we had very much problem with Volvo, and change control systems in the automatic transmission.

Nissen

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renaultbiler
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« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2009, 10:36:09 am »

There are 3 TranServ in Sweden. And we bought one last autumn. And this year we have not had to replace a single automatic transmission, or reconditioned.

And the price is ?...... Shocked
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
nissenhj
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« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2009, 02:10:54 pm »

There are 3 TranServ in Sweden. And we bought one last autumn. And this year we have not had to replace a single automatic transmission, or reconditioned.

And the price is ?...... Shocked

From www.wynnsbutiken.se (Wynn's Sweden) i think we give 26000:-SEK With 12 or 24 Wynn's Automatic Transmission Flush and 12 or 24 Wynn's Automatic Transmission Treatment.

It's cheap compared to changing automatic transmission or renovation of the control system (20000:-SEK)

But it is not for an individual to have. Maybe some guys go together and buy one.
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