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Author Topic: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6  (Read 13126 times)
Trolkar
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« on: September 14, 2009, 10:21:29 pm »

Hi there! – I’m kind a confused about my newly family member. – A Grand Espace from 1999 with 225.000 km’s on its tail. It’s a “Grand”, and also grand engine. 3.0 V6-24v with a ZF 4-speed automatic gearbox.

I’m having seriously leak of oils, but that’s not the question right now. – This question is about the gearbox.

When the car is “hot”, e.g. after running quite fresh for about 10-20 km, there is a “noise” when shifting from 3 to 4 and backwards. The noise is sounded for about 1½ sec, but can be forced for at longer while if you run up hill in 3, and “pressing the limits” of the engine. (60-70% of pressure on the throttle)

In my ears, it could be the “sound of a synchromesh being forced / hold into position” or simply the convertor “slipping”. – But when the change is complete, the sounds stop. – On less you push the vehicle up hill.

Can anyone, just from the my simply writing guide me in the right direction?
I my opinion, there is only one way. – A new gearbox with a new converter.
Therefore, I found this firm in Germany. – They have gearbox which should be the right one for me.

http://cgi.ebay.de/AUTOMATIKGETRIEBE-RENAULT-ESPACE-3-0-V6-24V-LMO-001_W0QQitemZ310167344987QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r?hash=item48376a175b&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262

But – Has anyone experience with that firm? – Any comments would be appriciatet!

Btw, I talk to a engineer at ZF headquarter in Denmark, and after just 3 minutes of driving he just said, that box was gone to hell. – And, which I’m surprised to hear, the “brand” of oil used in the ZF 4HP 20 is not that specific, as I’ve learn by reading this forum. – “You can used whatever you what, just don’t run out of oil”. – I also talked with 2 other companies in DK, which repair automatic gearboxes, and they don’t use ESSO oil. Some use Castrol and another use Q8.

Therefore, after reading the post about changing oil in the gearbox, I am confused. If the car is handled over to an “expert” for an oil change, do they really use ESSO, or just “what is nearest” ? – If the ZF HP 20 is so “keen on Esso”, why do other companies just “top up” with another brand?

Thx in advance!

Troels
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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
renaultbiler
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2009, 06:16:36 am »

Based on my own experience and research - use only the ESSO oil - thats also what my box was filled with when it arrived from a complete rebuild at ZF's facility in Sweden - and they use mainly Castrol at ZF as i understood, but this box is an exeption.
Give just ONE (!) good reason for NOT using the specified oil ? ..... There is no good reason !
Trust me, once you have spent this kind of money to rebuild such a delicat instrument give it the prescribed oil, it is prescribed for a reason.

Now to the gearbox - if you have the stick shift on the floor you probably have LM0 005 gearbox - if you have gearstick behind the steering wheel you probably have LM0 001

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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Trolkar
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 08:52:34 am »

Hi Tom!

I can only give you one good reason. If I buy a rebuild gearbox from ZF in danmark, it cost about 22.000 + vat. = 27.500 dkr (3.666 Eur). – And it is supplied with Castrol Oil!
ZF said, that if the new gearbox was failing, and they discovered that there has been an oil change (and not using Castrol), the warranty would void. – But perhaps the Castrol oils is perfect for 1 year while there is a warranty, and after that it is just not good enough?
Does someone know where to buy Esso oil in Denmark?
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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
renaultbiler
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2009, 11:30:34 am »

I can only give you one good reason. If I buy a rebuild gearbox from ZF in danmark, it cost about 22.000 + vat. = 27.500 dkr (3.666 Eur). – And it is supplied with Castrol Oil!


I presume it will in that case be sent off to Sweden for a rebuild and bench test like mine was, and it came back with 2-3 litres of the distinctive color and smell of the ESSO oil (i drained what was in it and refilled again with new oil).
I suspect your contact person is not completely aware of this, i also checked with ZF representative here in Norway before ordering oil exchange on my car (just before it broke down) and also they claimed ZF was using Castrol in all their boxes when returning from repair.

As you can see in the attached documents from ZF - it is crystal clear regarding the transmition oil on the 4HP20 box.

You must note, that when ZF returns the box it is not filled with the correct amount of oil - this must be done after mounted back in the car.

But - as always - it is up to you what oil you choose in the end, but my strong advise is to stick with the ESSO oil, also sold by Renault as "LM0" oil in 2 litre containers.

As another example, i bought a Scenic 2.0 16v with the DP0 automatic transmition recently. It was sold cheap partially because of weird behaviour from the gearbox. It was filled with non prescribed oil (red).
I drained it and flushed it 3 times with prescribed ELF Renaultmatic D3 oil (orange in color) and reset its oil agening counter and adaptives - now it is working perfectly !

So oil is not oil, use what the manufacturer says on these things.

The 24v is a wonderful car, and has a wonderful gearbox when it is working correctly - so think twice before gambling with any oil not prescribed for it.

--

I see that the box supplied from GSB is a 001 box, that is why you need to check what box is in your car - it can be read off the metal plate on top of the gearbox.

My advise is to let ZF fix YOUR box. Then you know the mileage on the box as you will get back your own.

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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Trolkar
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 02:35:50 pm »

Strange, just talked to ZF again. - This time with Jan Nielsen, ZF Denmark. – And let me say, this man knows his stuff! – (Or he is just a superfast “googler”)

According to Jan, the ZF 4 HP 20 is a strange gearbox. – It is used in many other vehicles, but the recommended oil is very different, according to which car it is installed in.

In a Renault Grand Espace, the only accepted oil is  -  Esso LT 71141 and 1 other Brand (The original Renault LMO oil)

And the problem with my gearbox? – The planet wheels is so worn out, that they are “rubbing / grating” on the axle. It can mayby last 5 km, or even 5000 km.
Damm…
 
And ZF Denmark don’t rebuild gearbox’s, they get them from Germany. – And yes, ZF Sweden rebuild 4 HP 20, but in Denmark, it is “cheaper” for ZF to have one from Germany. ZF Sweden is the only ZF aftermarket place in Scandinavia with test bench…

I would very much like a factory rebuild gearbox from ZF, but the price? 28.000 dkr, or 3.750,00 Eur… The gearbox from GSB is 1499, but to make up for the 12 months warranty from ZF, the price from GSB is (2199 + 329 for the converter and 269 for transport = 2797. A difference of 950 euro, or 7.100 dkr.
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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
renaultbiler
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 03:59:30 pm »

In a Renault Grand Espace, the only accepted oil is  -  Esso LT 71141 and 1 other Brand (The original Renault LMO oil)


The Renault LM0 oil IS the ESSO oil in a Renault bottle - same color and very distinctive smell, i have a 2 litre standing.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 06:56:49 pm »

Hi Troels,

I would very much like a factory rebuild gearbox from ZF, but the price? 28.000 dkr, or 3.750,00 Eur… The gearbox from GSB is 1499, but to make up for the 12 months warranty from ZF, the price from GSB is (2199 + 329 for the converter and 269 for transport = 2797. A difference of 950 euro, or 7.100 dkr.

I asked for a price for this some months ago, and as far as I recall the ZF rebuilt gearbox was less that 20.000 DKK. So I'm a bit surprised about this price. I don't have the exact amount I was quoted, but I remember it was only a bit more than ZF Sweden wanted (including shipment).

Anyway, it turned out my gearbox was all right and it was just water in an electrical connector that had caused it to mess up Wink

But with those prices, I would probably go for GSB to save the money. If you are adventurous, you can drive the car towards Berlin as far as it will take you and itself - if it breaks down completely, you can have it towed to the destination. Alternatively, I think GSB can arrange towing from Denmark.

ZF Sweden is another good option.

We have talked about your car and the problems you have had elsewhere. What kind of help is the seller of the car offering to you now?

Best wishes,
Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2009, 08:22:30 pm »

Isnt it a relatively short distance to Gøteborg from almost everywhere in Denmark ? Cheesy

Check what ZF in Sweden wants for the job, then bring it there - when i could get this done for approx 20.ooo NOK in the expencive country called Norway im sure sweden wont be any more expencive - AND don't forget the exchange rate, if it costs 20.000 SEK you would get away with roughly 15000 DKK !!!!

And once it is fixed you will never regret it and soon forget this headache, as it is a superb car !
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Trolkar
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 08:55:39 pm »


We have talked about your car and the problems you have had elsewhere. What kind of help is the seller of the car offering to you now?

Best wishes,
Anders

Hi Anders!

I must say, I really don’t know yet.

Yesterday, I drove a short trip with the garage, and it was the first time he actually heard the sound / noise I was complying about.

Today the vehicle hit the lift, and he was hoping to find the problem today, but another thing came in his way. – Hopefully tomorrow the reason of my big oil leak can be found. – Tomorrow will also be the day, where he gets some e-mail about exchange of the gearbox from a various of companies. Then will see what to do.


Troels
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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
Trolkar
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 09:14:34 pm »

The price at ZF is dkr. 22.400 ex. Vat. = 28.000 dkr. – But, if you have CVR number, you will save 10-15% - And the price is therefore around 23.800. dkr.

I have used a huge time on the Internet today, and it seems like GSB are offering a discount furthermore. – I’m waiting I pain to hear what prices my garage are getting.

The car has been in the family since the 14. June, but it has not been able to drive for more than 48 days. Mainly because of the suddenly huge oil leak.

I am still waiting to enjoy the faith and trustworthy experience with the car...
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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
Trolkar
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Posts: 82



« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2009, 10:11:37 pm »

Got a call from my garage this evening. – Unfortunately, the phone ran out of power. But I did manage to hear, that my big oil leak was again the crankshaft gasket, but the oil was being “lifted” up by the timing belt to the top of the engine. – That’s good news for me, since the warranty pays for that.
So, new gasket and new timing belt (again).

But the engine should be up and running by the end of the week!

Tomorrow, I hope to hear about the gearbox…
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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
renaultbiler
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 10:32:41 am »

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Automatik-Getriebe-Renault-Espace-3-0_W0QQitemZ280399042867
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Trolkar
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Posts: 82



« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 08:44:05 pm »

Cheap! - Have to give them a call! - THX!!!
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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2009, 09:57:15 pm »

I notice the gearbox is gone now. Did you buy it? Smiley
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Trolkar
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Posts: 82



« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2009, 10:30:42 pm »

Erh?? - Don't know! - Have to call my mechanic!
I send him the link, but havent talked with him... - Maybe? - Maybe not?!?!

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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
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