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Author Topic: Murena 1.6 engine mods  (Read 20333 times)
Waldo
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« on: May 18, 2006, 03:53:14 am »

Hi...

I have now collected my german Murena 1.6 and it looks to be in pretty good shape!

I have seen that a fellow danish guy have changed the engine for a 1.9 gti engine from a peugeot 309 I believe. My first question is how the danish car inspection reacted to this mod?

Secondly I'm seriously considering putting another engine in the car, don't get to upset now but the engine I have in mind is the Peugeot 2.0 HDI (90 bhp)!
I know this sounds crazy to some (most I guess), but from my point of view this would be the perfect engine for the little murena!!!
As the basic engine makes the same power the car inspection in Denmark shouldn't be a problem (I hope) and the engine should result in a very good fuel economy (close to 20 km/l  Grin).

At the same time, this being a diesel engine, it's very realiable and starts every morning! Adding a intercooler (can be taken off before an inspection) and having the ECU reprogrammed should provide great torque and plenty of power (>300Nm and 130-140 bhp)  Wink

Only downside I can think of is fitting the damn engine to the car!!! Does anybody know if this is possible at all (I ready to make custom engine mounts and do a bit of work). I think the main problem is the exhuast manifold with the turbo (requires some space) and getting extra ventialtion in the engine bay.

I allready have a motor and gearbox from a peugeot 406 HDI that have done 200.000 km, and I expect to do some extensive measuring when I get back from overseas...
By the way, does anybody know the weight of the 1.6 engine? I don't wanna put add to much excess weight to the car.

Comments on the project in general will be appreciated as well...

Regards,
Valdemar
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2006, 10:40:13 am »

A diesel-Murena? I've heard about an electric Murena, so why not?

But it is an engineering project to do it. The HDI engines have very advanced engine management systems, adding to the mechanical challenges that everyone will face when attempting an engine upgrade. Lennarts upgrade to the 205 gti engine was within the percentage limit of extra power to his 1.6, so he did not have problems with inspection as far as I understand.

The much higher torque of the diesel engine will have to be carefully evaluated with regards to engine mounts and chassis strength.

I beleive the HDI engines have catalytic converters, which should also be fitted.

There's also an electric fuel pump near the tank that needs to be carried over.

I would not consider such a project, but that's just my personal opinion of course :-)

- Anders
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Artur
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2006, 11:15:33 am »

Technical side is one aspect... Diesel engine does not really suit the idea of Murena, i think.
I have just to much respect to this car, so i would not do it.
I just cant get right your plan to save money using modified car as a daily driver,
why not to buy another, much more economic vehicle with diesel engine and leave Murena as a fun car?
 
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Matra_Hans
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2006, 04:22:55 pm »

Hi
In Denmark (and most likely in other countries too) there are two aspects you must consider when you are modifying a car:
1 The modifications have to be approved at the car inspection as “safe”. As an example if you cut or modify the chassis the car is off the roads forever!
2. If your modifications change the "identity" of the car you will have to go the tax/ customs people and pay duty as if it is a different car. The inspection people will send you to the coustoms people if you forget to do so yourself.

Almost any thing can be done if you have the skill and sufficient funds.
On a UK web page I just found the description of how to fit a V8 Rover into a Ford Sierra. However the comment from the author was:
“But frankly if you needed to ask, then its probably not a job you should do... “
Consider that!
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Waldo
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Diesel power :o)


« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2006, 02:33:44 am »

Hi again...

Well the issue of changing the identity of the car does not apply as the danish tax rules specificly allows an engine replacement from petrol to diesel and vice versa...
My thoughts are more if the car must have an approval with the specific engine installed!
As the 205 gti engine have never been fitted to the car from the Matra factory, from my point of view the same rules apply if fitting a 406 HDI engine.
The big difference I see is that the inspectors won't have any problems figuring out that the HDI engine is not orginal   Angry But the more I think of it, the more I wan't to do it!

Artur mentioned to leave the Murena as a fun car... from my point of view the HDI engine will increase the fun factor due to the extra torque and power and will leave me with a real big grin on my face each time I need to refuel  Cheesy
Besides I can't afford a second car due to road tax and insurance (I'm a student), and my current car is due for an inspection late this year, and I expect to sell it or trash it when the inspection is due!

I didn't write on the forum because I thought some would tell me it's a 3 day job to swap them over... I'm expecting to use most of summer getting the job done! My main objective is to do the conversion without cutting and welding the chassis or bodywork.
I will have a much closer look at the HDI and Murena engine compartment next weekend. At first glance the main task is as mentioned to fit the exhaust manifold and get enough cooling! I expect to make new engine mounts, exhaust system, gear linkage, modifyed driveshafts and that the electrical system will require a lot of work and modifying...

Anyone that would like to know how I get on, can follow this thread as I will write about the project as I move forward, if there's any interest that is...

Kind regards,
Valdemar
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2006, 09:14:47 am »

I absolutely agree that the HDI engine will increase the fun factor significantly!!

Swapping with the HDI engine will not change the car's identity.

I'm full of respect of your persistence and enthusiasm! YES we want to hear more - and give you any advice we can!

- Anders
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Artur
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2006, 01:13:19 pm »

I have done a small research about sport cars with diesel engines:
Opel EcoSpeedster
The two-seat prototype (1.3-liter, 82 kW/112 hp CDTI) is based on the mid-engined Speedster roadster, but features new, carbon fiber bodywork with much improved aerodynamics. With significantly reduced drag (cD= 0.20) and even lower weight (around 660 kg), the Eco-Speedster takes up where another Opel prototype left off 30 years ago: On June 1, 1972, at the company's Dudenhofen proving ground, a modified Opel GT with 95 hp, 2.1-liter turbocharged diesel engine made the headlines by setting several world records for diesel passenger cars and reached a top speed of 197.5 km/h. Shortly afterwards, Opel launched the Opel Rekord 2.1 D, its first diesel-engined passenger car.
VW EcoRacer
The EcoRacer uses a carbon-fiber monocoque worthy of a Formula 1 machine. The engine, mounted amidships, the 1.5-liter, turbocharged direct-injection, four-cylinder diesel develops 134 hp and a maximum torque of 184 lb-ft, which is available between 1900 and 3750 rpm. The particulate filter- equipped common rail turbo-diesel is mated to a six-speed, twin-clutch DSG transmission.
Not only does it accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 6.3 seconds and top out at 143 mph, according to VW, it also averages a miserly 80 mpg.

So, its very modern idea  -  a sport car with diesel engine...
Even if I dont like it enough, Waldo, please inform about your progress!
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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2006, 11:56:11 pm »

So, its very modern idea  -  a sport car with diesel engine...

Oh yes, and after Le Mans 2006, I think the world press will overflow with diesel stories. :-)

"think" ... or is that a hope ?
Anyway, as long as we don't get rain during the 24h, I'm pretty sure the Audi Tdi will stand a very good chance of winning, and the petrol-heads will have to succumb to the fact that diesel has become sporty :-)

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
Matra_Hans
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2006, 08:34:54 pm »

Hi
I have just put a 1.6 engine with gearbox (Peugeot BE1 gearbox) on a scale and the weight is exactly 150 kg. However the 2.2 engines is heavier than a1.6 so most likely the HDI engine will be within the weight limits for the Murena.
As it is possible to find space to fit a petrol turbo engine in the Murena it must also be possible to find the space for a turbo diesel.
I have heard that somebody who have done several engine transplants in different cars always build a model/ muck-up of the engine room out of plywood in order to figure out how to fit the engine. He claimed that this method saved a lot of time as doing the test fitting outside the car was very easy.
If you install an intercooler the airflow for the intercooler will be a problem, a water-cooled charge cooler will solve that problem but they are very expensive.

By the way: This evening I managed to get my 505-turbo engine running for the first time. I have had great difficulties in starting the engine and have spent a lot of time checking the wiring. I can tell you there are a lot of wiring, relays and interlocking on such an engine. It has three separate “computers” i.e. ECU, ignition curve management and knock sensor computer. I did not find any error in the wiring, but just suddenly when I pressed my red starter putton the engine fired up; there must have been a bad and/or corroded wire connection somewhere.
I have the engine in an engine stand in my workshop, in order to be sure that everything is OK before installing it in my Murena 2.2.

regards Hans
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Waldo
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Diesel power :o)


« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2006, 09:24:45 am »

Hello again and thanks for the "moral support"...

I appreciate the info Hans, the idea of using a muck-up it very interesting... hadn't thought of that before!

I'm aware of the airflow "problem" (or challenge as I would put it). My best idea for now is to take out the rear side windows and have ducts made up so that air will be guided down into the engine bay... As I earlier wrote I don't like to cut in the bodywork, as I prefer to have the option of getting the car back to original setup later on... (one day it will be a really seldom classic, and I don't wanna ruin this fact by doing modern mods)

About the electrical engine management, I believe I have a big advantages as I actually have a fully functional 406 HDI 90 standing in my garage... (it have been in an accident, only bodywork damage)
This means that I can test the functionallity as I take parts of the 406, to see what is needed for the ECU and etc.

I will surely keep the thread running as people seems to have the needed interest!

Thanks,
Valdemar
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Will Falconer
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2006, 01:53:51 pm »

Can I just point out that you need to be careful with the design of the ducting; the Murena is designed to bring air into the engine bay from the bottom behind the seats and it flows over the engine and down and out the bottom under the boot.

I have seen forward facing ducts on a Murena replacing the grille that matches the petrol cap. They don't work because the pressure from below would push against the ducted air making it ineffective.

If you are going to replace the side windows with vents guess it could work as you could design the ducts to join the upflow , if all that additional pressure under the boot doesn't cause it to take off! Grin
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Matra_Hans
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2006, 09:24:14 pm »

Hi
As an additional remark to Will comments regarding airflow and engine compartment cooling, I will like to mentioned that a deep front spoiler on the Murena will more or less block the airflow under the car and there by reduce the air circulation around the engine

regards Hans
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2006, 10:09:35 pm »

Hi
As an additional remark to Will comments regarding airflow and engine compartment cooling, I will like to mentioned that a deep front spoiler on the Murena will more or less block the airflow under the car and there by reduce the air circulation around the engine

regards Hans

Hans, I remember your car has a deep front spoiler - how does it manage with that? How do you expect to get enough air flow with the new (presumably) hotter turbo engine?

Just a thought now that you pointed this out.

The 4S had side air intakes and a deep spoiler, but that's a big change to the body.

(image from Murena section of Matrasport.dk)

- Anders
« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 10:11:37 pm by dinsen » Logged

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Matra_Hans
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2006, 09:52:40 am »

As I spent a major part of my time in Africa and other strange places “ I have more projects than I have time” so I’m think a lot about what to do on my projects when I will be back home and will be able to find the time!!
My Murena have a Lamm front spoiler. Not really my taste but what to do? It was on the car when I got it.  Further the car is lowered in the front, I do not know how much it has been lowered as I did not do it myself. As a result there is not much there is not much space under the front of the car. However one benefit it that if I hit a cat on the road is dead on the spot. I do not have to get out and hit it with the jack to relief it from its pain ;-)
My plan is to leave the Lamm spoiler on the car one reason being that part of the original front underneath the Lamm spoiler looks as if part of it has been removed in anger with an axe. In order to get sufficient airflow through the radiator etc. I will increase the size of the air intake in the front by removing the beam in the middle for the number plate and making the hole deeper (Where will you place the front number plate? I hear you ask! Well. For the time being I don’t know) and side air intakes in the front have been considered, but I think that the airflow in the middle of the car is most important for the engine cooling. Side air intakes in the front might be good for a radiator for a water cooled chargecooler!!
I have ben thinking of modifying/ making a new air guidens plate under the car in order to “shovel” more air up through the engine compartment.  But I am for the time being not sure if that will be a good idea. Ground clearence might be a probleme.

I will keep the turbo boost of the engine within “moderate levels” (220 HP is my target for the time being) in order to keep heat production within limits, and I am considering water-cooled intercooler and an oil cooler in order to remove heat from the engine compartment. To replace the rearwindov with a Farrary style back is in my thinking not a good idea as the airflow on the back of the engine (where you have the very hot turbo) will be reduced, as you will have the air flow up the front ot the engine and out in open air through the air scoopes of the Farrari back.

By the way Andes: Where can I buy a S4 frontspoiler?

Regards Hans


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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2006, 07:56:32 pm »

You must have many cats where you live? Hwr, I'm sure we have more here in Copenhagen.

No, I don't know where to get a 4S front spoiler, even Politecnic doesn't have it... I think I read somewhere that it was made of rubber, or at least the lower part was. Having driving a J11 Espace which has a glass fiber front spoiler, I really consider rubber far superior to glass fiber since just a bit of frozen snow can break the stiff spoiler.

You have some ram air intakes in the front of your spoiler, they should be excellent for channeling cold air to brakes / engine / intercooler / oil cooler. Prototype racing cars usually have the radiators and turbos at the sides, and large air intakes there. This is ok on the race cars since the designers go through a lot to ensure that flow is good around the radiators, but in the Murena the side will never be a high pressure area.

The front is, however, and with your low spoiler, even more than the original.

If you put a smooth underpan in the car, you can control the air flow, and with a diffuser at the rear you can even gain downforce back there (I don't remember if you have the Murena S-rear spoiler, which has the effect of increasing the vacuum at the rear thus enhancing a rear diffuser's effect).

Regarding the Ferrari style engine cover, I don't think it will change a lot since the air over it will be mostly turbolent and not in vacuum. It will not suck air out. The suction is at the rear of the car - which is good for your turbo if you preserve or enhance the rear ventilation exits.

All this is speculation, I'm afraid (I don't even own a Murena - yet) - but I've just finished reading Joseph Katz: Race Car Aerodynamics, so I guess I'm in an 'inspired' state just now Smiley
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 07:58:10 pm by dinsen » Logged

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