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Author Topic: Matra-Conversion  (Read 40794 times)
Kris
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« on: January 29, 2004, 12:00:19 pm »

hello lennart and others,

i'm kris from germany. me and lennart yet had some discussion by e-mail and i'm very glad to find this forum. I'm one of those who like the matra for their form but want to rebuild it with another engine. unhappily this attitude is not welcome at all in "official" matra-club-scene ... not here in germany and still less in france. so its difficult to find good information ressources and technical support.

my project is a 1973 bagheera and it will be mounted up with a peugeot XU-engine from the same family like lennart's one. i'm a big peugeot 205 GTI-fan and i've got a little stock of parts so that i want to use these components.

as i read and heard about problems concerning the driveshafts in XU-conversed murenas, now i long time i've been looking for a solution with peugeot original parts and i'm near to have found something:

for the murena-owner the solution is simple:

the murenas ME-gearbox from the citroen CX has been and is still produced in a version for the PSA XU-engine, for example in the citroen XM and Xantia 2.0 and 2.0 turbo C.T.

so converting a murena you only would have to take the citroen ME-box, mount it on a XU-engine and mount it in the murena with its original driveshafts. so even the mount of the citroen 2.0 turbo C.T. (good for 200 hp) would be an easy job to do.

for the bagheera the job is harder. there is less space and it has never had the citroen gearbox. but, some years ago a bagheera with 5-speed-box was for sale and i drove the car and asked the owner how he did mount it. he said:i don't remember, was a 1.6 simca motor with gearbox and driveshafts coming from any talbot on a demolition place.

today, i think to know which gearbox it was:

the talbot horizon 1.4 was delivered with a version of the peugeot BE 5-speed-gearbox mounted on the simca-engine and the driveshafts were the same like for the 4-speed-simca-gearbox only the gearbox-side articulation had been changed to peugeot-system.

so if the horizon shafts are used, they seem slightly to short, but the bagheera and horizon-parts could be combined.

so this is my current level of knowledge.

so i'm looking forward to some good discussions here ;-))

greetings, kris


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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2004, 12:14:56 am »

whoa, - that 2.0 turbo mod sounds good - I never knew the gearbox was produced that long (or even still)  - it certainly removes the driveshaft-drawback of any conversion.

I use my Murena 1.9 (XU9JA/K) everyday - even here in the wet and miserable winter - and I love the injection. Its doesn't have the same response as my old Weber carburetted 1.6, but its always there, and never gets ice or dirt in any jets ...

Another path for conversion is the high performance, which in this country is out of the question due to tax and law, - but I'd love to try one of the dutch Alfa V6 converted ones, - or in fact this 2.0t thought...

If I had the finances and space, I would own an original Murena, as well as my day-to-day Murena 1.9, - but then again, if I had finances and space, I would also own a Djet ... and ... and ... :-)

« Last Edit: February 14, 2004, 12:28:49 pm by Lennart » Logged

Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
Kris
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2004, 01:11:01 pm »

hello lennart,

what exactly is the XU 9JA/K?
injection 8-valve-XU-engines i know:

- XU 5 J / 180 A / 105 hp / Bosch LE-jetronic
- XU 5 J / 180 Z / 104 hp / Bosch LE-jetronic
- XU 5 JA / .... / 115 hp / Bosch LE-jetronic
- XU 9 J1 DFZ / 102 hp / Bosch LU2-jetronic
(- XU 9 M DDZ / 109 hp / Bosch monopoint) one of the conversions linked on your site
- XU 9 J2 D6A / 123 hp / Bosch LH3-jetronic
- XU 9 JA D6B / 128 hp / Bosch LE-jetronic
- XU 9JAZ DKZ / 120 hp / Bosch L-motronic

what is the version JAK? never heard or read about.

did you know that you can change a lot the character of your car by the gearbox ... the BE box existes with several combinations of speed-ratios and diff.-ratios, from 180 km/h at 6.5oo up to 270 km/h at 6.5oo ...

in the 205 GTI depending on the engine and the country there were several gearboxes: 180 kmh at 6.ooo / 190 kmh at 6.ooo / 200 kmh at 6.ooo.

easily the gearbox-ratio of the 5th speed can be changed,so the car will be faster in acceleeration or top-speed: 210 kmh at 6.ooo / 230 kmh at 6.ooo.

greetings, kris



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Kris
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2004, 12:01:20 pm »

hello,

its me ;-))
i just did some searching in my literature and found out, what is the XU 9 JA/K engine.

well, in fact, on some few papers the XU 9 JA is also called XU 9 JA/K. so your engine would be a 128hp/94 kw (for germany) or 131hp/96kw (the french info) version with LE-jetronic.

this is a great engine!

greetz, kris

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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2004, 07:22:05 pm »

this is a great engine!

Certainly, - but I do have a problem with its smoothness. I didn't have it just after the conversion, but one morning, - soon after I brought it to Denmark - it suddenly started running quite unevenly in the 1500-2000 rev-band. sort of when the ignition or mixture is wrongly set.

Petrol in Denmark has been lead-free for years, even the "leaded" was using lead substitutes, and this was my first suspicion. However, all attempts to boost the octane and other  tricks have however had no effect whatsoever.

Running jet-cleaning fluids for a couple of tankfulls had no effect either.

ignition leads and spark plugs are replaced, the ditributor cap too but to no effect (other than its nice to know its new :-) )

I have had it checked by numerous specialists, without finding anything. - but there are signs that the vacuum-regulation of the ignition timing isn't smooth, but  almost "on/off"

The fault could be in the distributor - but I haven't found a replacement ditributor for any sort og humane money.

Probably my best solution would be to buy a complete Peug 205 1.9gti from Germany (with a good engine), - and then start swapping parts, until the fault goes away.  

This requires money, time and space - all of which is under hard pressure already :-)


Does the symptom ring any bell for you ?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2004, 07:24:35 pm by Lennart » Logged

Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
Kris
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2004, 09:57:14 pm »

hello lennart,

well - i know some reasons that could cause that effect:

- a broken air-valve, there is a "supplementary-air-valve" below the dsitributor, that is one of the parts that break regulary and cause problems of smoothness ...
- dirty throttle - its a very small opening where the depression for the distributor passes.
- broken or hardened tube from throttle to distributor
- any tube or joint between air-volume-messuring unit and engine broken/open where "wrong" air passes
- maybe oil-filled-up distributor, the distributor gets full of oil when the joint between it and the cylinderhead breaks

to buy a 128 hp-GTI will be quite hard - as these cars never were catalysed, they have nearly gone ... what you find today is the 120 hp-motronic-version - that from engine peripherie has not much to do with the 128hp.

i still have 2x 128hp distributors - usually i sell parts like these for 30 to 40 euros.

whatever you need, i could have it my own or organize it.

greetz, kris

i'll add a photo of a 120hp-engine (well - its a 245hp turbo - but the base is 120hp) as you see the distributor is completely different - electronically arrganged ignition, no more vacuum-regulation


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Theo
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2004, 11:12:45 pm »

hi Guys,
I just logged on and visited the forum for the first time...

here is an additional list for power crazy dudes
1.9-16V: 405Mi16 phase 1, Citroen BX 16V, 309GTi16; motorcode XU9J4; 160pk (148pk with cat)

2.0-16V: 405Mi16 phase 2, Citroen ZX, 306 S16; XU10J4 (155pk)

2.0-16V: 306GTi (6bak), Xsara VTS (5speed); XU10J4RS (167pk)

2.0-8v turbo: XM 2.0CT, Xantia, 605, 406, 806; XU10J2ATE (148pk)

2.0-16V turbo: 405T16; XU10J4ATE (200pk)

Better forget about turbo's..... tooo much extra's.. so after 3 years of nothing I started again.. almost from 0 tooooo many new idea's. The 130pk 205 gti's are plenty available in the Netherlands... we love those dirty engines without catalysts from Germany  Grin

Yep, now and then I surf the web for a S16 donor for my Murena... none found yet. But that doesn't fit directly into a Murena 1.6 as many may think.

Cheers, Theo
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jos
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2004, 12:15:43 pm »

Nice to hear from you in this Forum Theo !

Of course I can recommend a V6 conversion......... Grin Wink Cool

Note rev.limiter has been set at 6900 now.





With kind regards
Jos

Made in Limburg Cheesy

« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 12:16:57 pm by jos » Logged
Theo
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2004, 12:29:30 pm »

jaja JOS...
when I look at that power curve.. I concider to fit the T4 directly and blow yr. car away!!  hehe

well I did start before a V6 was built... it just takes way toooo long  Sad

after this summer we might be able to testdrive :-)  I hope.. 230Nm @ 1800-3600rpm  Grin should be enough as a starting point!
Seeya, Theo
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jos
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2004, 01:36:12 pm »

jaja Theo   Wink Wink Wink A turbo is not a V6 ....  Grin Grin Grin
It is fun but it misses two cilinders, sound etc  Wink Wink Wink

But a twin turbo 3.0 v6...   Cool


Doei
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ketko
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2004, 12:25:04 pm »

I think the XU10-engines are made from cast iron, the XU9-engines are made from the lighter aluminium alloy

I started the conversion of my Murena last week, I'm rebuilding the body panels. The idea is to have a flip-front with new shape and round, recessed headlights (Hella 90 mm).
I will move the vacuum-tank and the petrol-tank to the front compartment.
I've just received my XU9J4 with BE gearbox from a 405MI16, D6C with Motronic ML4.1 = 160HP, no catalyst  Grin
According to http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm, this engine with modifications will manage 225HP

Lower weight = lower demand for power and better grip, to my knowledge the weight distribution should be in accordance with the tyre dimensions for the best grip.

I will take measures of various parts during the modification process, please let me know if I can assist in any way.

- Ketko, Norway
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- Ketko, Norway :-)
Theo
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2004, 12:59:07 pm »

hi ketko,
225pk is possible with that engine..  Grin it's used in autocross a lot and thus rare to find too.. would be great if you can make some pictures and measurements during the built.. mine 1600 engine is getting at the end of it''s cycle... had already a look at an mi16 same as you but at the moment it's tooo much extra work..

XU10 is casted iron yes... not the better choice.. but could / will be easier to get hold on in good shape.

I''m also planning to move both vacuum tank and fuel tank to the front. The battery will be positioned inside engine bay left side where the tank was.. most space and hopefull easy access.. depends on some hoses etc..

Jos also wants to move the tank to the front.. so for us that is sure interesting... Ulf has already tank in the front but no drawing.. 30 liters I believe.. I'm going for 40 liters.. but there is more space.. 50 liter should be possible.

Keep us updated, Theo
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jos
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2004, 01:48:06 pm »

Hi Ketko and Theo,

Great that that you have an MI16 engine now ! Getting a bit jalous here....... Wink Smiley Wink

As Theo already mentioned we are also looking into the fuel tank issue. It would be very helpfull if you could help us out with that one.

Everybody : Have a nice weekend ! Enjoy !

Jos


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ketko
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2004, 03:14:29 pm »

Hi !
Nice to know that this forum is active !

Petrol tank :
As I remember, the maximum widht should be 72 cm, the max. height 25 cm and the max depth 32 cm to get a low centre of gravity. Should be filled with foam or have baffles to prevent fuel from sloshing around in the tight bends... :-)
I think 30-40 litres would be the right choice for me, too.
I dont know if Ulf got the approval, but his tank was very expensive (about EUR1000....). WHP-racing made something similar for their project.

A quick calculation says that there should be about 985 kg total, that is 450 kg. in the front and 535 kg in the back. With tyres 195 in front and 225 in the rear the ideal would be something like 457 kg in the front and 528 kg. in the rear... not taking the bigger radiator in concideration, this should be fine..

Have a nice weekend, I sure will use mine in the garage...

- Ketko :-)
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- Ketko, Norway :-)
ketko
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2004, 10:28:52 pm »

OOOPS!!

Measured again today, petrol tank shold NOT be wider than about 70 cm, and not higher than about 23 cm including brackets.
The depth (the dimension in the front-back direction) is somewhat free to choose, taking into consideration where You will have Your spare tyre, battery, vacuum-tank and so on.

My idea is to fasten the petroltank to the plates of the front axle on both sides, and to the small brackets about 24 cm above the front axle.
This will place the tank just in front of the steering axle, and within the wheelbase.
I was thinking of utilizing the tank as a integral support for the front shocks, but this could result in a broken tank....


Hi !
Nice to know that this forum is active !

Petrol tank :
As I remember, the maximum widht should be 72 cm, the max. height 25 cm and the max depth 32 cm to get a low centre of gravity. Should be filled with foam or have baffles to prevent fuel from sloshing around in the tight bends... :-)
I think 30-40 litres would be the right choice for me, too.
I dont know if Ulf got the approval, but his tank was very expensive (about EUR1000....). WHP-racing made something similar for their project.

A quick calculation says that there should be about 985 kg total, that is 450 kg. in the front and 535 kg in the back. With tyres 195 in front and 225 in the rear the ideal would be something like 457 kg in the front and 528 kg. in the rear... not taking the bigger radiator in concideration, this should be fine..

Have a nice weekend, I sure will use mine in the garage...

- Ketko :-)
Embarrassed Smiley
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- Ketko, Norway :-)
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