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Author Topic: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance  (Read 29601 times)
hru
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Murena Lover :-)


« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2006, 10:17:20 am »

Quote
No not really... the pug 505 gti(grand tourer injection) engine has nothing in common with the pug 505 ti(TURBO Injection) and require alot of modification to fit.

Oh, I forgot the differences between NT9 and PSR engines
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Matra Murena 2.2
krede
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2006, 10:27:59 am »

Yep... the Dovrin engines are everywhere in citroens, renaults and peugeots wheres the n9t are very rare.
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hru
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2006, 02:37:45 pm »

How much do you think Carjoy will charge you for the n9t ?
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Matra Murena 2.2
krede
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2006, 03:25:36 pm »

How much do you think Carjoy will charge you for the n9t ?
I have no idea.. and i dont think they even have any peugeot engines.
I have just bought a standard 2.2 murena engine, that I will then build to n9te specifications.
His prices are 1500 euro for a complete murena 2.2 in good condition.
You can also get one with piston or bearing faliur, but otherwise ok, for 750 euro (the one I bought).
Freight amounts to 130 euro. 
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krede
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« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2006, 05:55:31 pm »

Just found a bit about installing fuel injection on the murena engine... dont know why i didnt see it before..

http://www.technikhomepage.de/kfz/efi/einspr.html
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hru
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« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2006, 12:39:15 pm »

Interesting !
I will look at the details
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Matra Murena 2.2
turbofriik
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« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2007, 01:28:13 pm »

Hi,

I've been watching for Matra Murenas sometime, and I'm interested of a enginebuild of Peugeot XU10J4TE swap to Matra Murena. (it's a 220hp turbocharged Peugeot engine from factory).

A fast RWD mid-engined Matra would be an interesting build. Engines would produce easily some 350+ hp. Of course requiring upgraded brakes and suspension. Wink

What I'm interested is that:
  • 1.6 or 2.2 as a basecar (differences in suspension, brakes?) , difference in engine mounts for XU engines? (XU10J4TE will mount similarly as XU9J2 (8v Gti engine) or XU9J4 (Mi16 engine).
  • What Gearbox 1.6 / 2.2 used? Easy solution to mount a newer Peugeot gearbox, which they used with the XU-series engines (BE3 , or ME-series from V6s) ?

I'm asking this from you , as you've done a XU-engine swap, and propably you know these facts.  Smiley
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krede
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« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2007, 04:01:56 pm »

Right... To start.. as far as I know, only one guy here has had his Murena converted to use the peug engine.
That would be Lennart, and he didn't do the work himself, but paid a garage to do his "dirty work", so I'm not sure he will be a reliable source of more tedious technical information. Smiley

But now..
Before I bought my Murena, I had EXACTLY the same speculations as you have now.
I also thought of other engine options , but came to the conclusion that the xu series is the most suitable engines  considering cost,  effort  and performance.. IF an engine swap is whats wanted.
In the end , I decided to buy a 2.2 and put a turbo on that engine instead.(I just havent gotten around to it yet Smiley )


If you decide that you definitely want to convert to an xu engine, the 1.6 is the murena to go for.
The 1.6 shares  a couple of the engine mounts with the xu, where the 2.2 is completely different.
Apart from that the 1.6 SHOULD prove the cheaper to buy, and the difference form the 2.2 is so limited that is (in my mind) doesn't make any real significance, as apart from the slightly wider tracking of the 2.2,  you'd have to improve it anyway. (brakes, suspension etc)

The swap itself will require the use of the BE3 gearbox that comes with the xu engine.Fortunately This gearbox is superior to the Citroen bx one used by matra.
I don't know if the gear linkage can be used without modification, but the propeller shafts needs to be cut to measure and then welded up again and balanced.
Right hand engine mount needs to be custom fabricated to fit.
You will need the wiring harness form the xu , the efi fuel pump and some way to feed it.
Exhaust needs modification as well... especially the down pipe.
And lots of other "small" things I can't think of now.

Now... the xu turbo from the 405 was NEVER renown for durability .. and add to that .. its an extremely rare and sought after engine..... like the 1.9 mi16 it will be very hard to find.. and if you do, it will certainly need a complete rebuild... witch is much the same as it will need extensive and expensive modifications  to get anywhere near 350 hp for more then a short time without the bottom end going south.

And seriously..... 350hp in a murena?.. hope you have your life insurance paid! because it WILL kill you mate!.. no doubt about it!!

ps: What's with this hp craze we see today!?
When the murena hit the street in the early 80'ies the 911 turbo had about 250hp.. and that was PLENTY to get you killed twice over!!..
The calibra turbo 4x4.. had 204hp.. and it went like a stabbed rat!!!..
Now anything with less then 300+ hp is regarded as weak.. I just dont get it..


« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 05:01:35 pm by krede » Logged
turbofriik
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« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2007, 05:53:11 pm »

Hi,

So 1.6 Mantra is easier to convert because it has similar engine mountings to XU-family. And BE3 gearbox use, ok, maybe ME-series gearbox could handle the high torque better. Ecu wiring, fueling, cooling, driveshafts modifying, gear linkage, clutch requires some work. Thanks for advices.

About the XU10J4TE as durability, please don't talk about it unless you have own a one and know about it yourself. I own a XU10J4TE engine with GT3076R turbo @ 2bar on a 405 T16 4x4 car, but it's an another story. XU10J4TE will go easily around 300hp with quite standard stuff, propably enough for a start to Mantra.

Anyone who knows are the enginemountings on chassis side different on 1.6 and 2.2 ? I would still prefer for a 2.2 chassis.

Also interested of a "bolt-on" brake upgrades for Mantra? Sorry, I'm a newbie on Mantras.  Smiley
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 06:18:40 pm by turbofriik » Logged
krede
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2007, 06:33:39 pm »

Well..  as I have never owned a t16 (they are almost none existent in Denmark,) of cause I have to rely on what I have learned from other sources.. Smiley.. but none or the t16 owners I spoke to when I was looking at engine options, had  much good to say about that engine.

ALL the engine mountings of the 2.2 are different to the 1.6.
The 2.2 even have one of the mount points situated on the oil sump!...a solution unique to the murena as far as I know??
And Im not sure whether the gearbox mounts are the same either?.. the propeller shafts certainly are different 1.6/2.2.

Bolt on brake upgrades... well.. had there been any , I would have fitted them all ready.
Danish regulations make fiddling with the brakes next to impossible.
The Talbot Horison discs and calibers will bolt straight on.. these are the same diameter, but the disc is slightly thicker.. and the rotors are still not ventilated!.. so I don't think it is much of an improvement.. certainly not adequate for 300 hp.
It is claimed that some audi 80 calibers will also bolt straight on to the Murena upright, but as for discs to fit this...Huh
Best bet would be to have a set made by a specialist willwod or simillar... but getting such a kit approved for street use?
If I remember correctly Jespers dutch v6 is fitted with such a kit.. If it gets approved (fingers crossed) I will copy his brake setup , if I can get him to spill the beans Smiley   
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 06:43:34 pm by krede » Logged
Bart_Maztra
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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2007, 08:28:39 pm »

I had the XU9 1900-8v engine in my 1.6 murena.  And i can tel you, the mountingpoints of the xu9 engine do NOT match the 1.6 enginemounts. Okay, they are kind of in the same place, but all mountingpoints needs modifications to make it fit. The richthandside mount needs a little cutting and moving the enginemount and a bracket. The lefthandside mount only need a bracket. The bottommount is totaly in the wrong place so that needs something fabricated to meet the chassis.

The 1900-8v engine is smaller than the Mi16 engine. the MI16 engine is much harder to fit in a murena. It needs grinding to make it fit. I gues your engine is at least the same size as a MI16. I gues it also needs more grinding to make room for the turbo.
I used the BE1 gearbox. The gearlinkage is easy to convert an the clutch is also easy, unlike the BE3.

The enginemount of a XU engine looks a bit simular to an 1.6 murena, but the murena enginemounts are designed for 100hp. To do 300+hp on these mounts is in my opinion not a good idea.

What about starting with a 2.2 murena and turbo that? That 2.2 engine was also sold with turbo in the 505 turbo.
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krede
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2007, 09:16:23 pm »

Well.. there was a lot I DIDN'T know!!.. I always thought that the Mi 16 engine would be just as easy to fit as the standard 1.9 gti engine.
But it makes me fell that more certain that I chose the right thing, when not going for the conversion Smiley ..

Quote
What about starting with a 2.2 murena and turbo that? That 2.2 engine was also sold with turbo in the 505 turbo.

That is what I have decided to do... It should be much easier.. and much less "intrusive" then an engine swap.
The 505 turbo can be made to yield about 200-220 hp without much effort or cost. witch i think  is  about as much power as the rest of the car can handle. for sure it will be enough for me Smiley   
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 09:19:50 pm by krede » Logged
lewisman
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« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2007, 09:20:07 pm »

When the time comes to change my engine I will be looking at the Alfa V6 conversion.   Personally I do not want to have a power output that destroys the drive-ability of the car.  A bit more power and the noise of an Alfa V6 would do me fine Grin Grin
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Bart_Maztra
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« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2007, 09:24:18 pm »

have a look here
http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/index.html
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krede
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« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2007, 11:43:39 pm »

In either case my experience has been that even the simplest looking engine conversion, has a tendency to end up much more time labour and money consuming then one had the fantasy to imagine before the project was started... especially things that aren't a "bolt on" fit and parts that has to be custom made, can be a real pain in the rear.
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