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Author Topic: Espace Mk3 DCi JE0K G9T - wont start :(  (Read 17131 times)
age9000
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Posts: 51


« on: February 04, 2015, 08:19:17 pm »

Hi Guys

any pointers on this ?

had one injector chuffing away, so pulled it out, re seated, new washer and re-assemble, that went ok


started her up, fired up straight away, made small rattle sound,so turned off,
tried to start again and just turns over, wont even try to catch.
tried some easy start as though maybe just needed to pull diesel through as been off road for 2 months
wont even run on easy start, sometimes it will try but just for a split second.

put the clip on and have a few errors,

DF019 - flow sensor circuit - I have the MAF & air box disconnected
DF022 - Ait temp sensor circuit - CO1 - old fault
DF052 - External Temperature sensor - CC - again think this is old fault but comes back after clearing
DF085 - Water Temp - CC - old fault like above, 
Pre heat relay circuit CC1 - this is an old fault and always been fine with this even in cold weather

I did have to charge the battery as went flat being left standing for two months
don't think it holds charge like it used to, its probably 3 years old now at least

checked the following via clip

Pressure in gallery 4 Bar - thought this should be higher ?
rail pressure loop variation 298 Bar
gallery pressure valve  RCO - 5%
engine speed  when cranking varies between 220 and 280 RPM, sometime with easy start is tries to catch
and RPM went to about 1500RPM

Not sure what the RPM on cranking should normally be so removed TDC sensor as known problem
not very dirty, but cleaned up and refitted, but no change in recorded speed

when switch ignition on you can hear the low pressure pump run, and also you can hear the fuel running through the
high pressure pump , would this be normal ?

reading through old posts someone said cambelt slipped on theirs, would have thought I would have got
error for TDC + cam not matching up

also wondered about high pressure pump, but would have thought would have run a bit on easy start


any pointers for me to look at ?

cheers


Age
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BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2015, 12:25:10 am »

It should run with easy start, or we prefer to use cockpit shine! the propellant is not as strong as easy start so you don't get the big rattle. I guess you wont get it going until you find what the noise is. Do you have compression, these are famous for breaking the rockershaft, thus the valves not opening enough. The problem with the tdc sensor is normally a broken wire/ poor connection. Causing non start & cutting out under load. obviously f your coolant sensor is faulty then it is not going to inject the correct amount of fuel. You appear to have one or more glow plugs not working. Two good ones will get it going but if three or mor have gone you have problems. Anyway as I say it should kick with easy start. Maybe worth removing the rocker cover to check the rocker shaft.
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2015, 01:03:00 pm »

Cheers Brian

does not make the rattle sound anymore, just did it on the first start, so switched off and then would not restart.
turns over with no un-usual noises, no bangs , rattles or grinding

I will check the rocker

can the cover be taken off with engine still in the car ?

I know the injectors have to come out for this, but what about the glow plugs ?
as I know sometimes they are pigs to get out.

Age
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BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2015, 10:32:34 am »

You can take the cover off with the glow plugs in place. once the cover is off you can get to the gplugs easy. Then you can check them. Also check the cam timing. The problem with the crank sensor is that it does not show a fault on clip. make sure it is pushed against the flywheel & check the continuity to the ecu. Last one of these I bought dead ended up having a new ecu due to knackered injectors. Obviously have the injectors cleaned, you will be surprised how well it will start & run after being done. Even if you only clean them in an ultrasonic bath. Strange it does not cough on easy start. Get a new Rocker cover gasket though. They do leak around the injectors after a time.
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2015, 10:39:04 am »

Cheers Brian

will have a go at getting the cover off tomorrow as Ive got the car at a friends farm
and will report back with any findings

Age
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age9000
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 03:57:32 pm »

Finally got the cover off

seems to have a fair bit of very thin oil in the cover, probably a mix of oil and easy start !

the tip of one of the injectors also seems to have broken off (only a small bit, about 1mm)

I also removed the EGR valve assembly to see how bad that was and it has been a few years since I cleaned it
small amount of the oil mixture here and also the pipe from the intercooler to the EGR assembly has about a pint
of oil mixture in as well, that's probably a good reason why not starting as I don't expect much air in the mix

The gaskets on the cover seemed ok apart from one place this was on the cam belt end of the central gasket
which had slight damage on the gasket around the injector/glow plug area

forgot to take photos !

just wondering if its easier to just drop a replacement engine in, flush the pipes
and maybe change the turbo at same time rather than mess about with it
mine has done about 190k and have seen a 60k engine for sale, though they want £500 for it
would probably have to get a garage to change it
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2015, 05:49:24 pm »

thinking about it I wonder if its an oil/diesel mix ?

not enough easy start would have been used to thin it that much
the oil in the sump is certainly thicker

if the tip of an injector broke off, would the injector then flood the inlet with diesel
which would then be pulled round the system, causing the build up of the oil/diesel mixture

its certainly mixed well whatever it is, looks like very thin oil,
don't smell of oil and don't smell of diesel, but could be the smell of a mixture !
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 05:51:45 pm by age9000 » Logged
BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2015, 09:03:05 pm »

There is always oil in the air system but yours is far too much!!! Poss the oil seal on the back of the turbo is on its way out.  But this would make it smokey. If an injector was leaking it would just go into the cylinder & cause a misfire again it would smoke.
You say you could hear fuel through the pump. Often this is air re-circulating to the tank. There is a bleed valve on the filter to rid air from the system.
With the right spanners you can get the turbo out in an hour. You can get a rebuild kit for less than £50

Its easy now to get the faulty glow plugs out & clean the injector seats. Maybe glow plugs, clean injectors & no oil in the intake is what it needs. These are expensive second hand engine units, Cheaper to buy a complete  scrapper car from gumtree as a donor.
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2015, 09:23:54 pm »

Cheers Brian

It sometimes did smoke on start up but after a quick burst it would settle down to be clear

as I said its very thin oil,  mixed possibly with diesel
though it could be there was only a small amount of oil and its mostly diesel
and its just picked up the oil that coats the inside of the pipes


If it was oil coming from the turbo would it be thin like this ? or just normal thickness

don't really want to scrap it, love it too much even though its getting a bit ragged round the edges Smiley

I was thinking about cleaning everything out, suck out anything that might have gone into cylinders (oil etc)
fit new gasket set and 2nd hand injector and then see what happens, that's about £60 so not too bad if still no good

got covered in it when I took the rocker off as I lifted it off and turned it over to look inside for any cracks etc and it poured all over me ! think it was in the expansion box part of the cover (rectangle shape at the front)

there might have been more than 1 pint in the intercooler pipe, so don't think it would be able to suck any air

will try and look at it again tomorrow

Age
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BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2015, 08:08:53 pm »

The rocker cover could be cracked letting oil into the inlet system, maybe the amount of unburnt fuel is re-circulating via the egr thinning the oil plus the easy start solution.
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2015, 09:43:07 pm »

cheers

Will clean the cover up and check it properly

hopefully this should be links to the gasket damage and the damaged injector

am wondering if the tip on the injector was damaged or blocked and the pressure blew the end off
and I guess that might have been the rattle sound I heard when first started
Its certainly a big hole in the end of it now , and you can see the needle


http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/injector.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/gasket.jpg

just noticed there is a dent near the tip of the injector, see photo below
I'm not sure if it was there before I refitted or not.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/injector2.jpg

I remember when I took the injector out I rested it on the slam panel, and forgot I did
then it started to rain so I closed the bonnet (not slammed but I think I did push is closed properly on the latches)
so I could have dented it then, maybe causing a fracture to the tip which then blew off due to pressure
or maybe there is a damaged valve which then hit the injector
If a valve was snapped I would have thought it would be very noisy on turn over, where as it seems fine.

not sure if I should go the whole way and get the head off as well, though don't fancy all that
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 08:31:12 pm by age9000 » Logged
GrahamT
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Posts: 46


« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2015, 03:25:26 pm »

Hiya, I don't know anything about these engines so this is just a general comment.
I don't think you have any choice but to take the head off. Too many unknowns. You don't know how much damage has been done to the bore or piston by the shrapnel from the injector.
Take the head off and examine the bores. If they look kaput go with replacing the engine. If they look ok, get the head reconditioned and rebuild the engine. You'll then have a known good top end. Turbos, injectors and EGRs etc can then follow. You'll have to get at least one injector anyway.  I suspect it won't cost in if you don't do the work yourself so the other option is, as already mentioned, buy another (maybe with damaged interior/bodywork) and make one good one out of 2.
Good luck!
Graham
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 10:42:14 pm »

cheers Brian & Graham

cleaned the manifold/cover assembly, cant see and damage to it
so think its just had severe over fuel due to damaged injector

I might have a go at getting the head off, not sure if it can be taken off with the engine
still in the car, had a quick search on the web and seems like the engine HAS to come out first

anyone done one with it still in the car ?

age
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renaultsan
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Posts: 93


« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 06:49:19 am »

You obviously have an electronically controlled diesel engine. You also say the MAF sensor and air box are disconnected together with a bunch of fault codes. Why is it disconnected?

I would suggest that before you go delving into other reasons for non starting that you replace all of the sensors noted as defective and clear the codes ( the MAF disconnected on its own can prevent starting) Why is the MAF disconnected, looks like you might need to replace that as well
As for your glow plugs, replace them all, they are not that expensive on e-bay.   
The engine ECU can only work properly from the information received from its sensors and given the number of codes you have, the poor thing does not stand a chance telling the engine what is needed.

As for the injector with the broken tip, I would be more worried about where it went as it could quite easily find its way into the cylinder and that could cause a lot of problems.
The glow plugs can be tested on the bench with the aid of a good battery and a couple of fly leads to tell you if they are functioning properly. You might also check if the glow plug relay is working properly.
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BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 10:19:14 am »

I think your assumption is right. The tip is well broken, you can replace it with a second hand one. The rattle being the tip in the bore & then it may have hydraulic'd & stopped. Either the tip is in the barrel or in the cat now. So as yer half way there with the cover off then you may as well have the head off. I don't see any reason why you cant do this in the car.

The car will start & run with the maf disconnected. Most clip errors end up being bad connections rather than sensors due to French wiring!
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