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Author Topic: Espace Mk3 DCi JE0K G9T - wont start :(  (Read 17106 times)
renaultsan
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Posts: 93


« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 11:42:11 pm »

I think your assumption is right. The tip is well broken, you can replace it with a second hand one. The rattle being the tip in the bore & then it may have hydraulic'd & stopped. Either the tip is in the barrel or in the cat now. So as yer half way there with the cover off then you may as well have the head off. I don't see any reason why you cant do this in the car.

The car will start & run with the maf disconnected. Most clip errors end up being bad connections rather than sensors due to French wiring!

Don't altogether agree with you on this one Brian. Our 1990 Espace developed a problem, it would start and run but as temperature increased it bogged down and eventually stopped. The fault was a dicky temperature sensor screwing up the mixture control giving a sort of choke on situation and nothing to do with the wiring, similarly when the oil light came on it was the oil pressure sensor, again not the wiring.
We deal with a lot of OBD2 code problems here and so far none of the codes have been generated by wiring faults, they have all been sensors going wrong. It gets worse when the car is also fly by wire.

As for Renaults dodgy wiring, our Renaults range from 1974 to 1992 Petrol models with the F8Q engines and to date have had no wiring faults on any of them.

Now the Renault Safrane is another story, that was a complete horror in the electrical department. I cannot say if Renault wiring has degenerated on later models, but if a code comes up I would still start diagnosis from what the 0OBD 2 is saying (no ours is not a hand held devise it is fully lap top integrated and will also provide live run time data)
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Renault Alpine GTA D500
Renault 25 V6 Automatic
Renault 25 TXI Multivalve
1990 Renault Espace
1974 Renault 15 TL 1300
1978 Renault 15 GTL 1300
Renault 25 GTX 2,2
Renault Extra 1.9 Diesel Vans (2)
roy4matra
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2015, 12:21:44 am »

Hi Guys

any pointers on this ?

...checked the following via clip

Pressure in gallery 4 Bar - thought this should be higher ?
rail pressure loop variation 298 Bar
gallery pressure valve  RCO - 5%
engine speed  when cranking varies between 220 and 280 RPM, sometime with easy start is tries to catch
and RPM went to about 1500RPM...

any pointers for me to look at ?


The very first thing here which no one seems to have picked up on is the fuel pressure.  You say the clip only shows 4 bar - do you mean the common rail pressure is only 4 bar on cranking?  It should be at least 160 bar to even start up.  At idle it should be near to 300 bar.  That 298 bar loop variation is basically saying it is 298 bar from what it should be.  The 4 bar sounds like the pressure developed by the low pressure pump that feeds the high pressure pump.  The rattle could have been the high pressure pump breaking up and now you have no high pressure.  Cranking rpm sounds correct - it should be around 250 rpm.

Roy.
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2015, 08:01:01 pm »

thanks for all the input guys. much appreciated

finally got round to getting the head off

well and truly damaged !

looks like one of the valves snapped, which then caused the tip of the injector to break off
which I then think stayed open , flooding with diesel, which then got sucked through the system
eventually blocking the inlet pipe & manifold so no air could get into the fuel mix
tip of the glow plug is also broken off

here's some lovely pics of the damage

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/brokenvalveampheaddamage.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/pistonwithembeddedvalve.jpg


Think I will just drop another engine in rather than replace head and piston etc
the engine has done about 186k

« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 08:05:16 pm by age9000 » Logged
GrahamT
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Posts: 46


« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2015, 09:19:43 pm »

Ouch
Good luck with that, hope it goes smoothly!

Roy,
We all spotted that, so obvious. We just left that for you.......     Wink
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roy4matra
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2015, 09:49:42 am »

thanks for all the input guys. much appreciated

finally got round to getting the head off

well and truly damaged !

here's some lovely pics of the damage

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/brokenvalveampheaddamage.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/pistonwithembeddedvalve.jpg

Ah, so you found the cause of the rattle!  Expensive!!

Quote
Think I will just drop another engine in rather than replace head and piston etc
the engine has done about 186k

Wise decision.  I think it will be a lot of work, time and money trying to repair that one.


And you were absolutely correct GrahamT when you said there was no option but to take the head off and investigate that rattle and broken injector tip.  Good call.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 09:52:43 am by roy4matra » Logged

age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2015, 11:02:01 am »

finding it hard to get replacement engine now Sad
the one I was after has now been sold Sad

mine has the G9T 710

are any of the other variants compatible with the 710 ? ie 642 etc
am not sure what the differences are

for example some people list different cambelt kits but the  "gates" kit has the same part number for the 710,645,742 & 743 variants and many others for laguna and the Nissan & movano

http://www.gatesautocat.com/article/K015573XS

Ive checked the bore, which appears undamaged so I could probably get away with replacing the piston & head
would make it a lot easier for me as don't have anything to lift an engine with !
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 04:28:59 pm by age9000 » Logged
BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2015, 09:48:11 am »

Here is one for parts
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Movano-Renault-Master-2-2-DCI-G9T720-G9T-720-complete-engine-spares-/121569762780?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c4e1f5ddc

I'm not sure if it would go again or how bad it may be. But worth investigating.
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2015, 09:49:50 pm »

thanks for that Brian

I messaged them to see if they would take the head off to check the piston/valves
as listing says the timing has jumped and wont start,
and they eventually said that they would not do that and I would have to take the chance
but as the listing says it wont start I think it probably has got some damage
though compared to what some people want its a bargain

however, I have now managed to get a replacement head and piston for £120
so I have started to fit that.

I was a bit worried after reading the PDF's of the engine on the forum as it says some engines
have a balance shaft unit, luckily mine has not got this, as the damaged piston is at the gearbox
end I just swivelled the oil pump out of the way, If it was at the timing end I think I would have been
stuck as would have had to remove the pump, which looks like all the gears would have to come off
def an engine out job.

anyway back to the job in hand

Is there a way to tell when setting the TDC that it is actually the proper TDC rather than 360 out ?
I know some people have rebuilt these and it would not start unless they swopped the connectors round
on the injectors as the crank was 360 out , and so the signal from the sensor was at the wrong point

Is there anyway to get a reading from the TDC sensor on the flywheel
or are there any other markings to show proper TDC


I hope that makes sense, or am I missing some thing glaringly obvious Smiley


One bargain I picked up was a full gates timing belt kit with the pulleys for £19.01 !
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 10:50:21 pm by age9000 » Logged
GrahamT
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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2015, 12:47:58 pm »

Hiya, as I said before, I'm not familiar with these engines but they all work on the same principle (ish :-) ) and I thought I'd give you something to mull over!

TDC is easy enough to set. Just put the piston at the top of it's stroke. Lock it there if you can (on the older Espace you could put an 8mm dowl into the crank)

The important thing is to set the cam so that No. 1 cylinder is on the firing stroke. This is when both inlet and exhaust valves are fully closed.

There should be (in an ideal world, but this IS Renault!) markings on the cam shaft sprocket(s) to indicate the correct position and I wouldn't mind betting that the instructions on fitting a new cam belt (timing belt) would describe this. (just googled and found this...  http://www.tooled-up.com/artwork/ProdPDF/SEAINSVS4760v2.pdf )

With the piston and valves set it should just then be a case of the sensors (camshaft and crankshaft) telling the ECU when to fire the correct injectors.


Hope that's somewhere near!!
Good luck,
Graham
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2015, 12:55:09 am »

Thanks for that Graham

Think I might have sussed it to make sure it is at real TDC
I removed the Camshaft sensor (actually located near rear of pump)
and there is a mark of the gears behind, which you can feel with your finger
or can use a mirror to check

so the crank should now be at real TDC

might be a few days before I can get to do anymore work on her
but will update asap


Age
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BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2015, 09:36:09 am »

Nice to hear you got your parts ok. No modern engine uses tdc marks to time the camshafts. If the pistons are at tdc then you can't turn the cams because the valves will foul the pistons. There is a bolt in the front of the engine near the starter that you take out to insert a pin through. You will see a hole for the pin in the crank. Timing the cams is a little harder without the tool but you can do it by eye. You can see that there is a slot in each cam behind the wheel, it is off center. These are for the timing tool to slot into. The slots should be upright. If there is a mark for tdc on the flywheel you will have to remove the crank sensor to see it, it may be a missing tooth! The sensor is on the back of the engine just around the driveshaft area. Hope it all goes well.
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age9000
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Posts: 51


« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2015, 01:34:03 pm »

cheers Brian

I treated myself to a proper timing locking kit as I saved so much on the cambelt kit Smiley

head now on, with new timing belt & pulleys, not a lot of space to do that, few scrapes & cuts now !
the old tensioner was starting to get noisy, old belt seemed fine, but probably due for a change anyway

timing all seems to be spot on, though I notice that number 3  exhaust (number 3 from timing end) is just starting to open
but as the timing pins and camshaft locking bars are all in place as they should be I guess that's right

just got to get round to fitting all the water pipes etc and new fluids
and then fingers crossed it might start, if not its been a good learning experience !
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BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2015, 10:43:56 am »

As long as you are using the tool so the cams & crank are locked in place then don't worry about what the valves are doing. Did you get your injectors cleaned? if not just sit the tips in oven cleaner or paint stripper. You'll be surprised at how little smoke there is at start-up. Let me know if you want to sell the tool. Look forward to hear that it is running.
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GrahamT
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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2015, 02:45:47 am »

Before you do anything, turn the engine over by hand a few times first!
Good luck Age
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age9000
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« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2015, 02:33:03 pm »

thanks Guys

I was planning on doing some work on her yesterday
but I suffer from fibromyalgia amongst other things and was in so much pain
bit better today, but think I will rest for a day or two otherwise it might flair up again

will let you know how it goes (or not as the case may be )
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