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Author Topic: EGR valve - 2.2dCi  (Read 72481 times)
roy4matra
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« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2008, 11:35:39 am »

Roy or anyone,

Can you tell me if that outer valve is meant to be fuly closed and where the gas it does vent goes to please? I'm intrigued, and Diesel is still £1:15.9p where I live!!

Yes both valves are meant to close and seal.  If one of yours does not then strictly it is faulty.  However, I have never looked where the passage leads and as I don't have a vehicle to check, I can't say for certain, but surely as the gas comes from the exhaust and leads to the inlet, the dirty side is from the exhaust and the clean side leads to the intake?  When open the gases pass the valves to get to the intake.  When closed the clean air passes the EGR valve to get to the inlet, but does not mix with any exhaust gas?  So it leads to the inlet?  If I get a chance to see one, I'll take a look.  As I said in another thread though, I'm no longer doing work for a local Renault dealer, so I won't necessarily get the chance that soon.

Roy
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MarkJHarris
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« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2008, 06:24:55 pm »

Thanks Roy.

My outer valve is definitely slightly open, so must be misadjusted, but my dealer claims it's all fine. As it's under warranty, and I live on an Island, I'll have to wait until april to start fixing it myself....can't wait.

My car definitely smokes under acceleration, even light acceleration. If my theory that the second valve is to balance pressures and not let boost of vacuum affect the operation, then I may be onto something.

Roll on Spring, and thanks again.
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ianP
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« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2009, 07:44:01 am »

Hi,  just reporting in on the latest EGR related issue I've had with my Espace...  it's been running 'ok' for a while - still quite noisy / rattly  but at least it's been running and has felt quite powerful.

last week driving to work, for some reason the car would simply not accelerate (I mean 20mph max on the flat, tried a hill and had to stop and turn around)... floored it in frustration, which seemed to help a bit (started me thinking about the EGR valve again!).

On leaving work, pulled out of carpark, 'beeeeep'... warning light and car in limp mode.   AA   plugged in and fault read as 'sooted up EGR valve' (he was actually quite surprised at the level of detail in the message!).... anyway, he took it out, gave it a quick clean and put it back in - in the process, losing 1 of the bolts!

The car actually went really well for 1 day - felt powerful,  quite difficult to explain, but it felt like she could finally breath.

1 day later, back to running very poorly again...  I took out the valve and gave it a more thorough clean, now it's on about 75% performance but i've got some quite alarming pinking / tapping going on!

 It seams to me as whenever you take out the valve, clean it and put it back, that you get a slightly different car each time - sometimes noisy, quieter, powerful, not so powerful (noisy and not so powerful at the moment)...

I've called it a day with the existing valve - it's been out so many times that it's actually in half now! there are 2 bolts holding it in and the metal gasket has probably seen better days.  Started looking about for a new valve but they seem to be quite expensive (been quoted around £150 - £160 -  thats around 150 - 160 euros  Cry )
-  anyone recommend a supplyier - with good value / quality valve?

Would you advise that I get this fitted by a qualified mechanic? -  I can get the thing in and out in under 30mins now,  and begrudge paying some garage 2 hours labour for the job...    would anyone recommend any other bits need to be changed with the EGR valve?   would a garage do anything with the ECU (that obviously I can't from home) to tell it that there's a new valve, etc...  or should the car just work this out for itself?


Thanks in advance for the help

Regards,
Ian.
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Ian Powell

2002 Renault Grand Espace 2.2dci "the Race"

2004 mini cooper
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« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2009, 05:19:04 pm »

Put in a new one and unplug the control cable. End of EGR trouble as you know it. Proven reliable on several cars home here, even with heavy caravan towing.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
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ianP
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« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2009, 06:48:20 pm »

Glad to hear it!  Damned EGR valve - never knew what one was until I bought the espace - I even dream about them now!  one question - why disconnect it (I'm assuming you're talking about the bigger plug in the end of the valve not the 'other' smaller plug - plugged somewhere else  Huh )?  won't this just stop the valve from working all together?

Cheers for the reply... 
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Ian Powell

2002 Renault Grand Espace 2.2dci "the Race"

2004 mini cooper
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« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2009, 12:04:23 am »

I've just cleaned mine... man it's dirty. Well, I've had a leaking Turbo since day one 20,000 miles ago, so I shouldn't complain as I haven't fixed that.  Roll Eyes

And out of curiosity, if you unplug it, won't it give an ECU error...?  Huh
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Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
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ianP
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« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2009, 08:30:08 pm »

Hi, I understand from other posts in this thread that unplugging could increase the emmissions - but yes, how does it help, and why wouldn't this confuse the ECU?  if the valve is constantly closed, this means you have 100% of the boost all of the time? with no boost escaping through the exhaust?  I can see how this is a bad thing whilst thinking about the planet - but whilst thinking about sorting out my car (I know, pales in to insignificance in comparisson - but I'm only human!) - disconnecting would at least tell he if the EGR is faulty - right? (if it's not functioning correctly, disconnecting will close it - full boost - performance better?  if still bad, then probably stuck open? 

Out of curiosity, how do you know your turbos on it's way out, the oil deposits on the EGR?  mine has a bit of oil on it everytime I take it out - not a huge amount, but a bit - does this mean I've got a potential turbo problem also? (please say No...)

Cheers,
Ian.

 

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Ian Powell

2002 Renault Grand Espace 2.2dci "the Race"

2004 mini cooper
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« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2009, 10:35:55 am »

Ian,

Yes, you're correct (as far as I know) that in the default state the valve doesn't let exhaust circulate. However, my concern is that the ECU would throw a wobbly when it can't detect the EGR valve in place. Having said that, the EGR valve has never caused my car to not start. Just going asthmatic, so I'm not going to disable it. I'll try to pull my weight for this green earth as long as it's feasible.

Out of curiosity, how do you know your turbos on it's way out, the oil deposits on the EGR?  mine has a bit of oil on it everytime I take it out - not a huge amount, but a bit - does this mean I've got a potential turbo problem also? (please say No...)

Well, I know because first Renault told me I needed a new one, then my friend, who took the whole engine out, told me that too. And my turbo isn't on it's way out, it's "just" leaking oil. And as such, it can burst at any time causing the engine to run on engine oil instead of diesel causing the engine to overrev and suck itself dry. Total recipe for disaster. On the other hand it can run like this for years and years and years without any problems.
But, yes, it sounds a bit like you might have the similar problem as I can see some soft oily deposits within the EGR valve.
When I first opened it up, it looked like this...

It wasn't nearly as bad when I opened it up the other day. Pays to keep it clean, methinks.
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Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
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« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2009, 05:12:36 pm »

These dont flag any faults visually (warning lights) or on performance as far as i know if egr is disconnected, other models like Kangoo etc will light up the MIL lamp in this case but not the Espace.
Disconnecting it will not cause it to eventually stick open due to soot - because it is always shut as it is most of the time anyhow.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
roy4matra
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« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2009, 09:14:15 am »

... the EGR valve has never caused my car to not start. Just going asthmatic, so I'm not going to disable it. I'll try to pull my weight for this green earth as long as it's feasible.

Quite right.  A stuck EGR valve is not the cause if your engine won't start.  The boost won't be able to build, so the performance will be poor, and you will be effectively causing more pollution as the system will be over-fuelling without the additional air (oxygen).  If you have starting problems then you need to look elsewhere even if the EGR is dirty and needs cleaning/replacing.

Quote
When I first opened it up, it looked like this...

It wasn't nearly as bad when I opened it up the other day. Pays to keep it clean, methinks.

Two things here: this and other photos I've seen on this topic all show an early EGR valve, and this was replaced by a better one (plastic ribbed outer body) which was generally fitted under warranty; so why have so many still got the old one?  Obviously these cars never went back to a dealer and had the valve replaced under warranty, but why?  This is often what happens when people don't take the car to a dealer and complain but either take it to an independent garage or do it themselves.  This appears to save money, but then you never benefit from the upgrades...

Second, if the valve is in this sort of condition when you remove it, then you MUST clean out the complete housing and manifold NOT just the valve.  I pointed this out much earlier in this thread, but not many are doing it judging by your responses.  If you don't thoroughly clean out ALL the carbon, then small particles from all the crap still left in there will keep getting back in.

Once your system is clean, as long as you keep it that way by regularly doing full accelerations to the governor during your driving, there should be no need to keep removing it to clean.  The procedure is quite simple - at least once in a journey if you do lots of short runs, or mostly city type driving, hold full throttle in a low gear (1st or 2nd) until it hits the governor and keep it there for a few seconds, no more.  If you noticed a lot of black exhaust smoke, then do this a few times until the exhaust is virtually clear.  This will clear out excess carbon.  If your type of driving entails more open road and fast running, then the build up will be much less anyway if everything is running correctly, but you should carry out this full throttle procedure at least once a week or so to keep the exhaust clean.

Then, as Lennart pointed out with his, you should have no problems with the EGR and you won't need to keep stripping it to clean.  But remember, if you have removed the valve and found it badly carboned up, you must clean out everything not just the valve itself.

Regarding this particular picture, it should not have the oily mess.  That suggests there is more oil coming from the turbo than is correct.  You will always get some small amount of oil in the inlet system from the turbo, but it should not be excessive; and EGR valves should mostly have dry carbon if they are dirty.  So this engine has a turbo oil leak that is above normal, and you need to keep an eye on your oil usage.  Once it gets excessive, you will have to change the turbo or suffer the consequences.

Roy
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stu.s
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« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2009, 01:42:30 am »


Martin,
I wonder if you or anyone else can help.  I have recently aquired a grand espace 2.2DCi with a major underpower issue that this thred seems to cover.  However, in your photo of the location of the EGR valve, there is a second connector from wires comming out of the same conduit as those that go to the EGR valve.  In the photo, the connector seems to go to some type of sensor above the EGR valve.  Mine doesn't have this!  Just the connector hanging free!  I wonder if someone can enlighten me as to what this connector goes to and what it does?  Thanks, Stuart.
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Martin Tyas
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« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2009, 10:50:49 am »

Hi and welcome

From new that connector is "parked" on a plastic retaining clip mounted to the air cleaner support bracket and so was mine when I took that photograph. But since the plastic clip got brittle and cracked and then my redundant connector was also hanging free until I tie-wrapped it to the wiring going to the EGR. I haven't looked at the wiring diagram to see what the connector it is for but it will no doubt be used on another variant but is not connected to anything on a 2.2dCI.
I hope you get your lack of power issue resolved

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
stu.s
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« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2009, 11:45:24 am »

Thanks for such a speedy reply Martin.  I will continue with my plan then to remove and inspect/clean the EGR valve tomorrow morning.  I have a 2001 espace, but it has the newer black bodied EGR valve so I'm curious to know how good or bad it is going to look when I get it out!  I hope this does sort out the problem, as I don't think the power it has makes it safe enough to drive the family in - hills on motorways and busy junctions leave us feeling more than a little exposed!
In my espace at the moment, I can only use about 50% of the accelerator travel, more than that for any more than a couple of seconds sees the car going into limp mode that people here have described.  The three times it has done that to me I have felt embarrassed AND scared at the same time!
Thanks for your help, I'll let you know how it goes.
Stuart.
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« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2009, 12:13:21 pm »

Hi Stu. Welcome!
It's my EGR valve that's in the picture above.  Shocked Do clean the valve out first, to see if it helps. It's a 45min job if you take it easy and it's very dirty. Get some good cleaner though as the dirt will go everywhere.  Embarrassed
However, it does sound like you might have some other problem. When the EGR valve sticks, it basically feels like the car doesn't have a Turbo. It works fine apart from that at a certain rpm when you expect power, there's nothing more. It will still rev up to the limiter, albeit very slowly.
Let's hope it's your EGR valve and nothing else! Good luck!
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Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
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Martin Tyas
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« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2009, 12:37:20 pm »

The diaphagms are identical between the original style EGR and the later ones with the black plastic solenoid housing Stuart and the chances are that you will find the same as most in that it will be heavily carboned and probably a small particle of carbon lodged in one of the diaphragms. You will wonder how such a small piece of carbon holding open the valve by about a millimetre or so can make such a massive difference to the engine performance. The reason is that it's doing what it supposed to but all the time instead of when needed and that is recirculating exhaust gases into intake... so less oxygen to assist the ignition of the fuel and resultant poor performance. The further the valve is wedged open the higher the proportion of exhaust gas there is in the fuel/air mixture and the bigger the reduction in engine power.

Unless they modified the solenoid and spring when they changed to the black plastic housing version of the EGR I'm not convinced it is anything more than a manufacturing cost reduction... a cheaper moulded plastic housing rather than steel. And even if the solenoid has changed I'm still not convinced that it would make any difference because the way the EGR operates is that it is mechanically closed i.e. spring pressure and electro-mechananically opened by actuation of the solenoid. So to make it less prone to being held open by small particles of carbon it would have to have a higher spring pressure keeping it closed and therefore also a stronger solenoid to compensate for the higher spring pressure.

Hope that a good clean resolves the problem

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
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