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Author Topic: EGR valve - 2.2dCi  (Read 72387 times)
stu.s
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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2009, 08:29:07 pm »

Thanks for your replies, but curiosity got the better of me and I removed my valve this evening.  I am including a couple of pics of the EGR valve just after I got it out.  It does look the same as the earlier one, and does have lots of carbon.  But I'm afraid of the verdict of you more knowledgeable chaps out there about the vast amount of oil on it.  Does this mean what  think it means? Am I now shopping for a new turbo?
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TheJoker
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« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2009, 11:49:36 am »

Eeek!!  Shocked One that's worse than mine!  Roll Eyes I don't know where the oil is from, but it's not good.  Undecided I'll let the experts chime in as I don't know.  Embarrassed
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stu.s
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« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2009, 12:52:10 am »

Hi, just thought I'd show you the latest developments to get your opinions.  I cleaned the valve (quite easily with an aerosol can of brake cleaner), and the 1st picture shows the transformation - though you can see I'm no photographer!  I refitted it, then ran the car for 2 miles (3.2km).  I could give it 100% throttle without the zig-zag symbol coming up and it going into limp mode, so that was good!  However, the car was still fairly gutless   Angry
When I got home, I did a pit-stop tyle removal and refit of the EGR to see if it had any trace of oil.  The second photo is the EGR after just 2 miles of quite hard driving, but not flat out all the way. I'm betting that whatever is wrong, it's expensive  Sad
Is there anywhere else that the oil could be comming from except the turbo?  The next thing is this, I need to use the car occasionally.  If it is the turbo, will I be any less at risk of doing huge damage if I grive it as gently as possible, trying not to use the turbo too much?  I can't afford a turbo until at least the end of July, so I am really nervous.
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TheJoker
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« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2009, 10:13:49 am »

I'm no expert on this, but I believe that your turbo really needs attention. If you don't give it attention you might end up with the whole engine blowing up. What can happen is that the intake will create enough vacuum to suck the oil from the turbo/engine into the cylinders where it will ignite just like diesel, resulting the engine over revving resulting in catastrophical failure. Because the fuel (i.e the oil from the engine) is coming via an uncontrolled source the governor that usually prevents the engine from over revving won't have any effect.

The only thing you can hope for is that you're on a clear motorway and can stick it in highest gear and let it run until there's no more oil in the engine, but enough to not cause damage to the engine. Otherwise all you can do is to push the clutch down and coast to a safe spot on the side and wait for it to go bang.  Cry

Short answer is, service your turbo now - and this is coming from one that's got a turbo that needs attention now. I'm led to believe that you can take the turbo off and put a refurbished one in, and send your old one off. This shouldn't be too costly, but I don't know the exact details. If you can lift the car up by yourself and get to the turbo, then you might be able to do this job by yourself.
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colin4255
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« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2009, 12:14:02 am »

Looks like a lot of people having similar problems.  This may be echoing some or all of the above, BUT what I have found in 30,000 miles of driving my Grand Espace 2.2dci is this.

1. DO NOT use cheap supermarket diesel in your Espace, it more than halves the time it takes to clog an EGR valve and more than one diesel engineer has told me it will eventually kill your engine, knacker your very expensive fuel injctors or do even more damage possibly.  Every garage mechanic I know has the same view of cheap diesel and it causes premature isues in many, many diesel engines, not just Renaults.   Cheap fuel is cheap for a reason. Supermarkets buy up on the 'spot market' all the fuel that the major oil companies reject as not good enough for their own use. Too much sulhpur, incorrect additive levels  etc (remember the panic Tesco's caused a few year ago with their bad batch of petrol?)   Same generally applies here.  If you can afford it, use Shell V-Power, or Total Excellium hi-grade diesel fuels, these burn more cleanly, give better mpg and do not put as much crap through your EGR system. A friend of mine has just had a £6,000 bill for a BMW 5 series engine he ran for three years from new on suprmarket cheap diesel. BMW took the engine back to Germany and carefully analysed it, eventually advising him that poor quality fuel was solely reponsible for its premature death.

2. Deisels work better with more air, so change your air filter every 5,000 miles, not the 10 or even 15,000 mile intervals the dealers will tell you. By then they'll have cut the air supply considerably and this will make your engine run too rich and therfore increase the build up of crap in your EGR system too!. They cost less than £10, take 2 minutes to fit and will definitely help your EGR system clan AND keep your fuel conumption up.

3. Don't drive them like a girl. The same Diesel engineers have told me you need to 'cane' a diesel engine hard at least once a month to get rid of all the soot that builds up in the EGR system. (Unlike some on this forum I would NOT reccommend holding the engine on full throttle in low gear for a mile - no need really). The more short runs you do, the more you need to think about this. Diesels rev lower than petrol engines and are designed for use with higher mileages as a rule. Short runs they hate. Periodically giving them a good blast won't hurt them in any way and a a diesel typically does not do much worse to the gallon no matter how hard you drive them, you are not going to hurt your wallet too much either. 

Be aware though that you should NEVER rev the nuts off any turbo engine or drive it hard and then shut it down while red hot without letting it idle for at least a minute or two to stabilise the temperature on both sides of the turbo - otherwise you could crystalise the oil in the turbo oil feed pipe and next time you run it, the turbo could go bang! You have ben warned.

4. What I did last time an EGR valve I'd had fitted by Renault started sticking after only 8 months (8 months!!), was I went an bought a new one from Partco (about £105 ish)  and I took out the old one, cleaned up the housing and fitted the new one myself. Car is going a bomb now.  Meantime, I have thoroughly cleaned the nearly new  old one, made sure the valves move freely, bagged it up and will re-fit it as soon as the latest one starts acting up! Then, depending on how long the new one lasts I will repeat this process again. They are a bit tricky to fit (one bolt in particular is hard to get at), but the job can be done by a home mechanic with some patience.

5. Injector cleaning.  I also, twice a year, put diesel fuel injector cleaner in my tank. Its quite cheap and keeping the injectors clean and free from inevitable crap build up will both save you having to replace them at £450 plus each! and will alo help keep them working at peak efficiency which in turn will keep the build up of soot in your EGR system to a minimum too.

6. Engine oil. Don't use cheap engine oil, it doesn't help either. I only ever use fully synthetic 5w 40 oil in my diesel espace. Another thing I learned from diesel fitters and engineers I have spoken to. It cleans the inside of the engine better, lubricates better and helps keep the turbo from failing. Very costly for nearly 8 litres but cheapr than an engine re-build.  Also, I change my oil and filter every 7500 - 8000 miles. 15000 miles betwen oil changes on a dirty smoking diesel turbo engine is way too long an interval.

Hope this helps.

Colin
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colin4255
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« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2009, 12:37:14 am »

Roy or anyone,

Can you tell me if that outer valve is meant to be fuly closed and where the gas it does vent goes to please? I'm intrigued, and Diesel is still £1:15.9p where I live!!

Yes both valves are meant to close and seal.  If one of yours does not then strictly it is faulty.  However, I have never looked where the passage leads and as I don't have a vehicle to check, I can't say for certain, but surely as the gas comes from the exhaust and leads to the inlet, the dirty side is from the exhaust and the clean side leads to the intake?  When open the gases pass the valves to get to the intake.  When closed the clean air passes the EGR valve to get to the inlet, but does not mix with any exhaust gas?  So it leads to the inlet?  If I get a chance to see one, I'll take a look.  As I said in another thread though, I'm no longer doing work for a local Renault dealer, so I won't necessarily get the chance that soon.

Roy

From what I know of how the EGR valve works, there is a steel pipe coming from the top RHS of the cylinder head (exhaust emission side) which leads in to the front of the EGR housing adjacent to the valve. At low speeds and on light throttle the EGR valve stays closed. When you accelerate hard, the solenoid on the valve end actuates as it senses heavy acceleration loading and the valve opens and feeds excess exhaust gas (this comes down the steel pipe from the engine) through the valve which in turn releases it down a large plastic pipe into the turbocharger air intake system. The idea is to take the NOX gases created when you floor it and feed them back through the turbo intake systm, so they are effectively re-used by the turbo, burning up all the NOX in the gases in the process. Its really a reducd misions thing.  Some people have blanked off the exhaust gas feed pipe with a plate. The EGR valve still operates but no dirty carbon filled gases get into the valve, housing or the turbo. The jury's out on this, as the gas has the effect of actually cooling down the turbo intake system, so possibly if you block the egr sytem off the turbo will run hotter and fail faster. On most Land Rover Diesel engines landrover themslves offer an EGR blanking plate as they suffer from sticking valves too!  The difference is possibly in how they use the gases produced?

You should definitely NOT have signs of oil on an EGR Valve. Its the sign of a soon to be beggared turbocharger. The way to tell if the turbo is letting oil back up ino the EGR system, is to un-clamp the large plastic pipe that connects to the bottom of the EGR housing and take a look inside it with a torch. If its full of wet, oily deposits - that is coming from your Turbo system and means your turbo oil feed pipe seals are leaking! AND it needs fixing fast.  BE VERY CAREFUL however, NOT to let any dirt or muck get down into that pipe, as when start your engine, it too, will get sucked straight into the turbo and will screw it up for you.  If you are planning to clean an EGR Valve or an EGR housing, MAKE sure that firstly, you diconnect the large plastic hose/pipe that comes out of the botom of the EGR housing and fully plug it with a really clean, lint or fibre free rag (better still cover it with cling film) and move it out of your way before you start knocking any carbon deposits or crap loose from the EGR housing.   Even the smallest amount of crap getting into that pipe will mean it gets sucked right into the turbo and you will damage the turbo almost immediately you start th engine!
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stu.s
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« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2009, 05:17:03 pm »

I've been continually skint for months now, so have not been able to investigate or rectify any faults with my 2.2dCi as yet.  If my turbo is on the way out, then I am still on borrowed time and count my blessings!  In case there is anything I am missing, I will bring you experts out there up to speed with my engine's "characteristics" and the car's history.
The faults . . .
When I start the car from cold, I get an enormous cloud of white/blue smoke from the exhaust.  This takes a few minutes usually to improve to the point where I don't feel like I am deploying a "007 smokescreen" anymore.  However, what happens then, is that with any more than gentle acceleration, I get huge clouds of black smoke from the exhaust as the revs rise.  All of this while feeling like I could run faster!  I doubt I would even have 50bhp at the wheels on a rolling road!
Now the history . . . .
Whe we bought the car it was quick, powerful, and did not seem to smoke any more than the majority of diesels.  It was VERY overdue a timing belt change though, so we parked it up until we could get this done.  My neighbour said that he was a mechanic, currently out of work, and would do it for the cost of parts plus a few quid extra.  To cut a long story shorter, he did not lock it, it would not re-start as the timing was now out.  A few angry days later I got the car back as a non runner and gave it to a work collegue to look at.  He is a fitter/mechanic at work, and does private work to suppliment his wages,  After removing the head, he told me that every valve had been hit, but none were bent.  He also reported some deep scratches inside the cylinders, and a small chunk out of one of the pistons!  He was under the impression that most of the cylinder/piston damage was old though.  He re-ground the valves (I think this is what he said!) and replaced the head gasket and timing belt - correctly!  Since then it has been gutless and drinks amazing amounts of oil.  It has not been compression tested, but if this is poor, could it explain the oil on the EGR valve and the excessive useage? Or is it almost definately the turbo?  The air filter has not been changed for a while, is it worth me changing this anyway?
I have been told that the only reliable cure is a new/reconditioned engine (or at my budget, one from a breakers/salvage yard). 
ANY advice that any of you can offer would be greatly appreciated.    Sorry to ramble on so much, but thought you should know all the details (everything I know anyway!) before giving advice.
We love the car, we just wish it had more power and cost less in oil!
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colin4255
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« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2009, 11:48:00 pm »

your initial paragraph abouthe black smoke and gutless engine was typical of s stuck EGR valve - when mine jammed on the motorway, it poured out clouds of black smoke and ran like a milk float. Cleaning the EGR housing and fitting a new £110 EGR valve fixed it completely - for about a year till it jammed again (see other posts - its all about carbon deposits building up and causing the valve to stick partially open - rendering the system useless , effectively reducing turbo boost to zero and it will keep on happening as the design is just very poor. I now have a spare egr valve to fit and carry it with me, and when one sticks I replace it then clean up the jammed one ready for when it will undoubtedly happen again. Good quality fully synthetic 5W40 oil is what I use ands change it every 7500 miles or so and replace air filters every 5,000 miles - it runs fine.

Now the later stuff about the timing belt and the massive oil useage.  I assume when the second mechanic put the car back together properly, apart from being still gutless it ran OK - no nasty noises, no use of water etc?  Did he find any damage? You need to asl him to be very specific and then let us all know what he says?  The high oil useage could be caused by any number of things.  If the pistons or bores are damaged, it will be burning the oil and you'd get blue smoke out of the exhaust under high acceleration and you'd be able to smell it (different to diesel smell), but high oil use plus oil in the egr valve is likely to be down to badly worn turbo oil seals. If they fail while youre driving the turbo will start running off the engine oil and even if you turn it off, it'll likely keep going till it drains the sump of oil and the engine seizes up (again see other posts on this site about turbo seal faulire - its not pretty).

Of course if you still haven't fixed the egr valve thats the most likely cause of poor performance, but the high oil use sounds like a more serious issue and could be damage to the engine boresand/or piston rings, badly seated valves or  worn turbo seals - you could have all three?

I'm not really sure what the best advice is. A new egr valve if you fit it yourself is going to cost around £110 (Eurocarparts.com) and the car would benefit from a new air filter, but none of that will stop it using oil - you really need to get a decent garage to take a look and advise you. Do compression tests and look at the turbo system and its feed pipes etc- badly seated valves could also cause oil to burn but they would not be as likely to cause the raw wet oil to end up in the egr valve as the engine would burn the oil - the egr valve would get sooted up much faster than normal if this was what was happening but thats all. If the oil in the egr system is wet raw oil, it points towards failing turbo oil seals - I think.

I'm sure our peers will also have their ideas. There are some really clever people who contribute to this forum who know a lot more than I do.

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stu.s
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« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2009, 08:49:02 am »

Thanks for so much information Colin - even if it does sound like bad news!  The second mechanic has told me that there were several areas of damage to the bores and one piston with a small chunk missing from the top edge.  The car ran fine when I got it back except for the power loss, and a slightly louder tapping noise which is only audible when accelerating, and quickens as the revs rise.  I don't remember this noise being like it when I first got the car, but I could be wrong.  When I next have a day off from work on Friday, I intend to remove the EGR valve and clean it up again, I will change the air filter at the same time.  From what I have read, this should solve the power issue, and also the black smoke.  I will fully expect this to be replaced with blue smoke from the oil!
I suspect you could be right and I have all three problems causing the oil useage.  It uses about a litre every 200 miles (ish), so surely this amount can't just be due to the bore damage?  Maybe a salvaged engine (complete with turbo) is the best option.  Still, I will try to get it confirmed that this is the best course of action before doing it, as I have nowhere near the skills of tools required to change the engine, and I should imagine the labour bill will be rather large!
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colin4255
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« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2009, 11:32:33 pm »

I think you may be right, my espace has run about 7,000 miles since last oil change and I have not had to put a drop in it. It just doesn't use oil at all - leastways not enough to see a drop on the dipstick.  As I change it every 8,000 miles or so in any case, would not expect it to use enough for me to see any difference.

One other thing - are there any obvious oil leaks - you have had quite a few big bits of the engine apart? Assume no oil in the water? but is it possible its just leaking? I guess you'd see a pool on the drive though - but as these things have a bloody great plastic under-tray - maybe not?? Its worth a look?

I'm sorry your having so much trouble - these things are a pain in the arse even when they are working properly!

One thing, when you clean the EGR valve, DO NOT be tempted to scrub at it with wire wool, or anything that could scratch the valve faces or your work will be in vein. They are a bugger to clean. I bought a 2 ltr can of brake cleaner, tipped some into   a glass  jug and immersed the valve,(metal part only - not the solenoid on the top!) left it to soak for an hour and repeated with clean fluid, only cleaning it with a toothbrush. Its vital you don't scratch or damage the two valve surfaces where they mate with the valve housing or gas will get by even when the thing is clean and shuts properly!

When its clean, check it moves backwards and forwards properly before you re-fit it. Also, make sure you disconnect the battery before you try unbolting it - if you drop a spanner, the starter motor is just below the egr hosuing and you could short something out if your not careful  Good luck. Hope it gets better for you.
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colin4255
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« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2009, 12:34:33 am »

Stu, I just had a thought. The tapping noise on acceleration, if its not too pronounced is likely to be a sticking hydraulic valve lifter, or one which  has not been able to adapt to the new clearances now the valves have been re-ground.  They work for years usually, but if you've had the head apart and ground the valves, its likely to be a slight clearance issue and probably nothing to worry about. Usually, unless damaged and in need or replacement, people don't re-grind or re-lap valves any more and its possible the hydrailic lifters just can't quite cope witht the change in tolerance now the valves have been ground - their adjustment is not infinite and they work to quite small tolerances.

I had a word yesterday with an engine bulider I know and he said that so long as there is no hole in the piston, its not unusual for them to run OK with small chunks missing though the damage to the bores, if its quite bad, would explain it using oil as its probably burning the stuff.  Again though, you'd be able to smell that from the exhaust and the exhaust smoke would be more blue than grey.  Of couse over time that missing chunk of piston could easily turn itself into a hole - they do get quite hot.  Maybe worth doing a compresssion test on each cyclinder?
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Einar
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« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2009, 08:08:16 pm »

Remove the fu***  thing Angry. I did it 2 years ago. And have`t had any problems after that. Smiley Smiley. Just keep it con. and hide it under the pipes for the AC. Replace the EGR "manifold" with a straight pipe, and block the hole in the exhaust manifold. After this modification, the care felt stronger on low revs. Smiley Grin
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roy4matra
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« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2009, 10:21:09 pm »

Remove the fu***  thing Angry. I did it 2 years ago. And have`t had any problems after that. Smiley Smiley. Just keep it con. and hide it under the pipes for the AC. Replace the EGR "manifold" with a straight pipe, and block the hole in the exhaust manifold. After this modification, the care felt stronger on low revs. Smiley Grin

Whilst I'm not defending Renault or the rule makers, doing what you've done, may solve your problem, but it doesn't do much for the environment as you've increase the pollution levels that the system is designed to lower.  If everyone takes that attitude with engines, we may as well not have the rules in the first place, and we are back where we started.  It's like those that remove catalytic convertors and replaced them with normal exhaust pipe sections.  Also as M.o.T. gas checks get better or tighter, these cars may not pass anymore.  Complain to the manufacturers, complain to your M.P., complain to the press, and refuse to buy cars from manufacturers that won't listen to their customers, or make unreliable products, but we shouldn't be nullifying the effects of pollution reduction, otherwise we may as well not have any.

Roy
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cestrianguy
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« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2009, 10:12:15 pm »

Time to add my own “sad” story regarding the EGR valve.
Bought my Espace Auto 2.2 dci in August ’05 with 9K miles on the clock. Many miles happy motoring then the dreaded zig-zag warning sign started mid ’08 with 50K on the clock.
Car into Renault whereupon new EGR valve fitted together with new inlet manifold - £1300 !! Apparently, the failing EGR had led to a build up in pressure that had caused the manifold to split – not sure this sounds correct but after the work it ran like a dream.
Anyway – almost 9 months later and the zig-zag starts again – back to Renault who can’t re-create the fault but whatever they did (probably cleaned the EGR) it was back to normal.
Just in the last few weeks the engine has started to surge when held at a steady speed (very noticeable at 40 mph and 70 mph). With each surge is a cloud of smoke from the exhaust. Don’t know if this is EGR related or not (no zig-zag warning) but I’m tempted to take it out for an inspection and clean.

Any thoughts ?

P.S. I have now just (belatedly) switched away from supermarket fuel and changed to high-spec oil for my oil changes (my father had warned me about this for years but.........!)
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TheJoker
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« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2009, 10:31:05 am »

Don’t know if this is EGR related or not (no zig-zag warning) but I’m tempted to take it out for an inspection and clean.

Any thoughts ?

With the right sockets, removing the EGR valve for inspection is a 10 minute job. You have nothing to lose to have a look.  Cool
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Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
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