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Author Topic: EGR valve - 2.2dCi  (Read 71208 times)
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« on: December 16, 2006, 10:54:01 am »

I know we've covered this topic before but I thought for those of you who have previously managed to clear EGR problems by the usual two methods i.e.

1) turning the ignition on and off to energise and de-energise the solenoid in the hope that it dislodges the carbon particle
2) drive it for a kilometre or so flat out in second gear

then you may like to see what to expect when neither of those two methods have worked and you need to take out and clean the EGR.

I've circled the particle of carbon that had lodged in the diaphragm and is holding it slightly open... it doesn't take much!!!

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2006, 08:33:44 pm »

Blimey!!  Shocked That wasn't much!  Roll Eyes Thanks for posting Martin!
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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2006, 12:01:37 am »

2) drive it for a kilometer or so flat out in second gear

A full kilometer ?! - that seems a bit harsh. I normally only do 3-5 seconds on the governor, that clears the exhaust completely, and hence hopefully the EGR.

btw - I have never actually had any EGR problems in my 20 kkm of ownership, - I  just do it preventively.

I know the previous owner did send the car in for service with "lack of power" and Roy told me that according to the internal Renault papers, they then gave it the very new model EGR valve, - which apparently has worked better in all cars.

So people with lots of EGR problems may have a remedy in replacing it with this newer version. ?

I'm sorry I haven't got the part numbers or anything, I'm just echoing what Roy told me - but I'm sure we can get Roy to enlighten us.

/Lennart
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 06:14:09 pm by Lennart Sorth » Logged

Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2006, 01:10:43 pm »

2) drive it for a kilometre or so flat out in second gear

A full kilometer ?! - that seems a bit harsh. I normally only do 3-5 seconds on the govenor, that clears the exhaust completely, and hence hopefuly the EGR.


Whatever works for you Lennart...... from my own particular experiences a short burst on full throttle often gives a James Bond style smoke screen from the exhaust but hasn't cleared the EGR when it's sticking open..... so it may be a bit harsh to run it for a kilometre or so but it has worked for me and when it's on the governor it cannot over rev.
But as you have said, what you are doing is preventative and what I've been doing is trying whatever remedies work after it's got poorly.

btw - I have never actually had any EGR problems in my 20 kkm of ownership, - I  just do it preventively.

I was speaking to someone the other day who'd had a few problems with his 6cyl diesel Audi A6.... before they even took a look at it the dealer said "I'll bet that you fuel up at the supermarket".... of course the answer was yes.
Looking at the level of carbon build up on my EGR maybe I could be paying in another way for using "cheap" diesel. Perhaps also you are using better quality diesel and having better fortune as a result.

But it isn't as though the car is used only for local running.... the two days previous it had almost 500 miles of motorway driving.

Martin
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 10:04:44 am by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2006, 05:29:15 pm »

But it isn't as though the car is used only for local running....
Cool, thats what the car really likes.

Unfortuneatly ours is mainly used for very few miles a day ... and only longer trips in the weekends.

This gets even worse now, as I have accepted a job-offer in UK (!), which will see the family divided somewhat for a few years. Then the car will do even less driving, - so we have (with bleeding heart) put it up for sale (in Denmark,  no - you DON'T want to hear the fair price)

We will have to find something small-engined, which can actually cope with such a small mileage - but still hold 4 people on rare occations. 

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 05:38:50 pm »

Congrats on the new job Lennart - where abouts in UK?
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2006, 12:53:02 am »

My first ever post!  Here goes:

I've had a second hand 2.2Dci The Race (77k on clock) for about the last 6 months.  I've read about the problems with the EGR valve both here and on another site and hoped it won't happen to me, but during the last week I've suddenly had 3 times when I've lost power, the zig zag symbol has come up and the car has died on me.  I've got a day off work on Thursday so I'm planning to have a look at the valve and see if it needs cleaning.

Lennart - I was interested to read about the 'new model EGR valve'.  How can you tell the difference between the two because I'm interested to know if I've already got one or if I'm still using the older type?

Also Martin - thanks for the picture - very useful.  What do you recommend for cleaning it up?
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Martin Tyas
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2006, 10:47:39 am »

Also Martin - thanks for the picture - very useful.  What do you recommend for cleaning it up?

Welcome aboard.

The symptoms you describe are classic EGR valve sticking.

Firstly, if you can get hold of some latex gloves it saves trying to scrub your hands and finger nails clean for days afterwards.... the oily goo you get on the main body of the EGR is terrible to clean off and as with other carbon impregnated oils, contact with it is not good for you.
Then get the worse of the oily deposits wiped off with a cloth..... WD40 works well to soften the sticky areas.... so does petrol... but the latex gloves don't like prolonged exposure to petrol !!
The carbon deposits will have to be scrapped off or brushed off with a wire brush.... the brass wire brushes used for cleaning spark plugs work well. The body of the valve is a machined casting and the valve diaphagms are high grade steel so both will withstand scrapping but preferably not with things that are too sharp or pointed like a screwdriver.... an old kitchen knife or the handle of an old tea spoon both work well.
The diaphagms will open by pushing from the back face of either of them and then I usually wedge them open for final cleaning around the ports.
Whilst you have the diaphagms held open also clean the shaft where it travels in an out of the solenoid housing.... there is a machined groove around the shaft which also fills with deposits that are best cleaned out and is visible when the diaphagms are held fully open.
It's OK to rotate the diaphragm disks and shaft to aid cleaning and again WD40 will help soften any stubborn areas and works well on a piece of cloth for a final clean.

Hope that helps.

Martin
 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 01:44:17 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2006, 02:26:32 pm »

I've lost power, the zig zag symbol has come up and the car has died on me. 
Now THAT I have experienced, - not "lack of power", but a genuine "take me home" emergency program in the computer. Managed 90km/h on a flat surface, that was it.

- however that was not the EGR, but the wires to the turbo pressure sensor, that had been severed by the aircon belt. (A plastic bracket keeping those two things apart had broken)

New sensor & wires, and the car was back on full steam again Smiley

Martin: Does the zigzag symbol normally come on if the EGR is stuck ?

froggy: for the moment I cannot tell you more about the "new EGR" (as I have told you all I know :-) ) - but my car had it fitted in 2004, so it is probably the version that is used on the Espace-IV ?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 02:33:24 pm by Lennart Sorth » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 02:50:16 pm »

There were no symbols on when I had the problem. See the "Loss of Power" thread about what ahppened to me.
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 03:54:04 pm »

thought so - I was just confused, as you called it "classic EGR valve sticking".
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 04:18:52 pm »

Martin: Does the zigzag symbol normally come on if the EGR is stuck ?

That seems to depend entirely upon how far the EGR is stuck open Lennart.

From my experiences I have found that if the EGR is getting sticky in operation or stuck open only a little then the zig-zag symbol does not come on, the engine is still responsive but just lacks power. Under those circumstances it is usually possible to clear the EGR by turning the ignition on and off several times or by taking the engine to full revs on the govenor for a while.

If the EGR gets stuck further open then the zig-zag symbol does come on followed by the "service" indicator light and the engine lacks responsiveness as well as power. Getting the engine to rev seems to take an age and even when it has eventually spooled up there is very little torque or pulling power. It is under this set of circumstances that I have found that the solution is to remove and clean the EGR.

After the problem had happened to me a couple of times, even though the car was still in warranty at the time, I bought a new EGR so that I wouldn't be reliant upon road side assistance or a main dealer who couldn't fit me in for 5 days when I needed the car to be somewhere in particular. I bought the EGR in 2004 and the part number is 82 00 294 794 but unless there were internal differences within the body of the valve housing the solenoid it appeared to be identical to the one fitted on the car from new in 2002.

However, I will be at a dealership tomorrow collecting a couple of parts that are only available from Renault so will make enquiries as to whether there has been any changes to the valve and if so what they are.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
roy4matra
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 06:43:13 pm »

I know we've covered this topic before but I thought for those of you who have previously managed to clear EGR problems by the usual two methods i.e.

1) turning the ignition on and off to energise and de-energise the solenoid in the hope that it dislodges the carbon particle
2) drive it for a kilometre or so flat out in second gear

then you may like to see what to expect when neither of those two methods have worked and you need to take out and clean the EGR.

I've circled the particle of carbon that had lodged in the diaphragm and is holding it slightly open... it doesn't take much!!!

Martin

In the first place, yes it does only take tiny amounts of hard carbon to stop a valve from closing.  These valves are not unlike an engine valve with a small seat and anything that gets trapped in it will not only stop it closing but obviously stop the turbo boost building so you lose power.

Second, these valve heads have been known to bend or break off completely, so you should not run the engine flat out for anything like a kilometre or so to try to clear it!  If you have a valve that you think is not closing, then by all means rev. the engine to max. (and hold it on the governor) for several seconds to attempt to clear the situation.  If it is going to clear, the amount of black smoke from the exhaust will diminish each time, and after say five accelerations, the exhaust should be fairly clear.  All turbo diesels emit a bit of black smoke on rapid acceleration since the fuel increases faster than the turbo spools up to produce the increased boost, but it should not be excessive.

The problem is that what you see here on the EGR valve is only a tiny proportion of the carbon build up inside the housing, and it is this that must be removed.  Before any new EGR valve is fitted to replace one that has either been bent or broken, or fails to seat even after cleaning, then the housing MUST be thoroughly cleaned out.  To do this you must remove the housing from the car.  This is tricky but not that bad - there are much worse jobs that I would not prefer to cleaning one of these!  The carbon build up can be astonishing.  I have seen it packed inside such that you think the internal shape of the casting is far different to reality.  When it is really clean, then and only then should you refit the cleaned or new EGR valve and possibly the pipe if it hasn't been changed.

The new EGR valve has a black plastic finned body, and looks totally different to the round metal body of the earlier type.  The pipe should be stainless steel, with s.s. flanges.  The earlier ones were totally cast iron, then a s.s.pipe with cast iron flanges and finally totally s.s.  The earliest cast iron ones had a plastic mesh around the pipe too.  This is no longer fitted.

Finally, since the dashboard 'zig-zag' warning light is simply an engine management malfunction warning light, it is the code that has produced it that is important.  The EGR valve can cause it to come on of course, as can many other things.  Lack of boost, incorrect sensor readings, fuel pressures, etc. and many are inter-related, so the lack of boost may be because the EGR is not seating, but it may be some other fault.  You cannot guess anymore otherwise it may simply lead you to the wrong solution.  If you take any EGR valve out, there will be some carbon build up evident, but it doesn't necessarily mean this is the cause of your problem, so beware that you may be wasting your time and money on a false premise.

Roy
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 08:22:41 am by roy4matra » Logged

TheJoker
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 10:05:44 pm »

Excellent info, Roy! Thanks!!  Cool
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Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
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Savo
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2007, 12:54:55 am »

Hi folks

here we go again my car was playing up yet again heart beat problem aka EGR Valve. decided to remove with the instructions from martin (thanks)
easy little job but very mucky, I was amayzed by the amount of carbon build up on the valve considering that it had been replaced about 5 months ago, witch leads me to another question is there some sort of addative that can be added to the fuel to stop such carbon building up ?  Huh
since cleaning the EGR valve out she goes like a rocket (big silver one)  Grin

SAVO
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