| Home  Blogs Help Search Login Register  
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] Print
Author Topic: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)  (Read 21515 times)
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


WWW
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2007, 07:08:52 pm »

Hi Anders and all readers,

Hi Jose, I checked with my Renault parts supplier and he confirms that it's an oil to water cooler/heater for the automatic gearbox. Its purpose is to heat the gear oil when it's cold, and cool it when it becomes hot. This ensures the correct viscosity of the oil, which is criticial for the function of the gearbox.

You must ask your garage whether they have replaced this on suspicion only, or whether they positively know that it was the source of problems.

In the latter case, I would suspect there would be coolant in the gearbox oil, which would of course have to be drained and replaced. This would show if just a bit of oil is drained off there.

If the oil cooler is replaced on suspicion only, they should have made the decision to do so with you - not by themselves.

It may be a good idea to replace this part - just to be on the safe side - but it certainly doesn't make sense to do so without checking the gearbox oil before or after. If there is coolant in the gearbox, it can ruin it on a short time.

I hope this helps,
- Anders

Yes, it has helped a lot!. Armed with that info, I have gone today to the Renault garage... first, there are several things (not big ones by now) that didn't work properly, so I have started with them.

Problems so far are:

  • Accelerator pedal with some initial resistance which makes driving smootly very hard. They have tried to modify cable routing but without success... I will try my own approach.
  • Whistling noise coming from top left side (looking from front) of engine, under a black cover. It varies with RPM. Doesn't sound as mechanical but some kind of electrical or air escapping noise. Any clue on this?
  • Low oil level warning  Shocked!. I saw this first yesterday and today has returned... Engine oil stick shows correct level and good looking oil Huh but sometimes digital gauge is wrong (when starting engine, of course). I guess this is a matter of sensor cabling.

As luck would like it, mechanic who did the work was not today at work, due to a relative illness. Well...

One of my main interests was to pick up the old parts. I have got a box full of them!!!. Included on it, there is the famous oil cooler. A curious thing: in the box there is an internal Renault document attached... it shows all the head gasket work parts but NOT the cooler... so I think it was an afterthought  Angry Angry

I have politely (still... I need to keep good relations at least until all faults are fixed  Wink !) asked the car reception clerk about the oil cooler and explained why I was not happy with the idea of it being changed without telling me and, apparently, after head work and also why autobox oil was not replaced. He has assured me oil was in good shape, as he asked the mechanic yesterday about not changing the autobox oil but he didn't know why cooler had been replaced. Once mechanic returns, we can comment, he has told.

Another thing which I wanted to be fixed, when I took the car, but has not been done is the stall when cold problem... somebody commented here it was related to a temperature sensor... I would appreciate if you can tell me which sensor is the faulty one, if you know it. That way, I would order the part directly and have them exchange it (or perhaps myself, as I don't trust them a lot)

I hope whistling noise is not an indication of something important going wrong... I will go with all the family tomorrow for a 200km trip with the Espace... I am a bit worried  Undecided !

Best regards and thanks for your help.

JOSE
Logged

JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
Administrator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2823



WWW
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2007, 09:42:25 pm »

Hi Jose


Accelerator pedal with some initial resistance which makes driving smootly very hard. They have tried to modify cable routing but without success... I will try my own approach.
I know that problem and I think the only proper way to fix it is to renew the accelerator cable, but for me it has helped routing it over the airbox inlet instead of the (according to the assembly instructions) correct way, under it. It seems you need to undo the airbox anyway (see below)

Quote
Whistling noise coming from top left side (looking from front) of engine, under a black cover. It varies with RPM. Doesn't sound as mechanical but some kind of electrical or air escapping noise. Any clue on this?

Probably the airfilter not being fitted correctly in the airbox, or something else. Try undoing the lid of the airbox where the filter sits and see if everything looks okay.

Quote
Low oil level warning  Shocked!. I saw this first yesterday and today has returned... Engine oil stick shows correct level and good looking oil Huh but sometimes digital gauge is wrong (when starting engine, of course). I guess this is a matter of sensor cabling.

Ever since these automatic sensors were introduced many years ago, they have caused as many incorrect warnings, I think, as correct ones. I agree it's probably a wiring problem. Are you sure it is the level warning, and not oil pressure warning?

Quote
One of my main interests was to pick up the old parts. I have got a box full of them!!!. Included on it, there is the famous oil cooler. A curious thing: in the box there is an internal Renault document attached... it shows all the head gasket work parts but NOT the cooler... so I think it was an afterthought  Angry Angry

Sounds likely.

Quote
I have politely (still... I need to keep good relations at least until all faults are fixed  Wink !) asked the car reception clerk about the oil cooler and explained why I was not happy with the idea of it being changed without telling me and, apparently, after head work and also why autobox oil was not replaced. He has assured me oil was in good shape, as he asked the mechanic yesterday about not changing the autobox oil but he didn't know why cooler had been replaced. Once mechanic returns, we can comment, he has told.

Yes, you really need to understand why they have repaced this part.

Quote
Another thing which I wanted to be fixed, when I took the car, but has not been done is the stall when cold problem... somebody commented here it was related to a temperature sensor... I would appreciate if you can tell me which sensor is the faulty one, if you know it. That way, I would order the part directly and have them exchange it (or perhaps myself, as I don't trust them a lot)

Yes, that is the water temperature sensor. It was (finally) exchanged on mine a few days ago, and though I didn't do it myself, as far as I know it is a pain to get access to. You will probably need to remove the entire airbox disconnecting it from the throttle body in order to get to it. Mine had the additional problem of a bad thermostat which caused the engine to run too cold (at least in cold weather we have up here in the North), so that was replaced too.

I don't have the part number, unfortunately.

Quote
I hope whistling noise is not an indication of something important going wrong... I will go with all the family tomorrow for a 200km trip with the Espace... I am a bit worried  Undecided !

It shouldn't take too long time to undo the airbox to get access to the filter, so that should clear the problem. With this car I'd be more worried if the sound comes from the other side of the engine - which is where the timing belt sits Wink

Have a nice trip tomorrow!

- Anders Cool
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 09:45:01 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


WWW
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2007, 10:14:51 pm »

Hello Anders,

Some clarifications to my previous message:

Quote
Whistling noise coming from top left side (looking from front) of engine, under a black cover. It varies with RPM. Doesn't sound as mechanical but some kind of electrical or air escapping noise. Any clue on this?

Quote
Probably the airfilter not being fitted correctly in the airbox, or something else. Try undoing the lid of the airbox where the filter sits and see if everything looks okay.

I think I didn't specify it right... it is coming from TOP LEFT SIDE, viewing car FROM FRONT!. So it seems the distribution side  Cry Cry

Quote
Low oil level warning  Shocked!. I saw this first yesterday and today has returned... Engine oil stick shows correct level and good looking oil Huh but sometimes digital gauge is wrong (when starting engine, of course). I guess this is a matter of sensor cabling.

Quote
Ever since these automatic sensors were introduced many years ago, they have caused as many incorrect warnings, I think, as correct ones. I agree it's probably a wiring problem. Are you sure it is the level warning, and not oil pressure warning?

Well, I don't have the user's manual (I would appreciate a copy of it!). What it shows is a blinking oil level scale and icon, with level at lowest part (just one segment lit), just after starting engine.

Regards,

JOSE
Logged

JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


WWW
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2007, 08:37:28 pm »

Hello!

Yesterday I took all the family (wife and four children) and went for a 300km trip with the Espace... As you could imagine, I was not plenty confident about it but, well, there is no better way to check a car as driving it  Wink !!!

Most of the trip was highway and I put the speed control at about 125km/h (so completely legal speed Smiley ). It used an average of 10.8 l/100km, which is the usual consumption I have always got from the car at (low) highway speeds. I have go to lower 9s on 90km/h roads. On light city traffic, it usually sits at 13 l/100km. I think these are common figures, right?

Well, engine behaved fine, except for a hickup it had, just after restarting on the gas station: while accelerating in the auxiliary lane, for perhaps a quarter of second, engine stopped and then restarted. It produced a big shacking to all of us but nothing else... I guess this is related to the faulty temperature sensor (which also stalled the car a couple times, just after starting it from cold). Any further idea?

But besides those hickup and stallings, everything else went fine. I checked coolant level before the trip with cool engine and again today. Level is exactly the same  Cheesy (I made a pencil mark on the expansion tank). Of course, it has not a clean color, as circuit cleaning was not, IMHO, well done. But at least coolant seems to be kept inside the circuit. Previous to the repair, it lowered about 300-500cc each 500km.

I have found  another gremlin, this time related to the old parts I got from the garage... in the box, there are a couple head gaskets, some old hoses, timing belt, auxiliary belt (two of them?), some tensors, bolts and lots of other small items. Some parts come in the box of the new part. At least mechanic was careful with this. BUT there is a new-in-bag coolant hose!. It is not too large (about 30cm between ends). But, obviously, is a new part in an unopened Renault spare parts bag. Price is about 12 Euro, according to the label it has. Did the mechanic forget to change it?. Is it from another car?  Huh Huh Huh

All in all, so far, without considering huge invoice and some details, my Espace is back  Cheesy !

I will let you know my advances with the remaining topics...

Regards,

JOSE
Logged

JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
Administrator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2823



WWW
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2007, 10:19:44 pm »

Any further idea?

With the work your Renault garage has done, I guess you can take it back to them. The computer will have a fault code registered and they can diagnose it by attaching the diagnostic tool.

Quote
Previous to the repair, it lowered about 300-500cc each 500km.

Well it's good to hear that that's fixed!

Quote
Did the mechanic forget to change it?

Not unlikely. It could have been part of a kit, but if the old hose is okay, there's no reason to replace it. I've got 25 year old hoses in my Murena that are still going strong.

Quote
All in all, so far, without considering huge invoice and some details, my Espace is back  Cheesy !

Congratulations! It's a wonderful car - when it runs Wink

- Anders Cool
Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


WWW
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2007, 11:19:21 pm »

I am completely fed up  Angry Angry Angry !!!

As you probaly remember, one of the things I was worried when I took the car to the Renault thieves was the autobox oil, which I asked to be replaced... and they didn't. Reason was that it is a lifelong oil and does not need replacement.

Well, I have today found the truth (looking at the Renault Espace Service Manual): there are two different oils in the autobox: one in the mechanism oil which SHOULD BE REPLACED EACH 60.000km and the other one, final drive, which is lifelong.

Adding this to all the other problems I had with the repair, I will go tomorrow to the Renault thieves cave and will place a formal complaint. They changed parts which were not necessary or meant they had not found the real cause for the engine problem (I am referring to oil/water radiator replacement). They didn't properly clean the cooling circuit. There is a whistling noise coming from engine. And so on...  Sad Sad Sad

I am really sad about all of this and, trust me, I will get things right  Angry Angry Angry Angry !!!

Well, sorry for the rant but I needed to tell someone!

Regards,

JOSE
Logged

JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
Administrator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2823



WWW
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2007, 12:07:57 am »

Hi José

I respect your need to rant.

But I think you are wrong here. Even in their generic specifications, ZF specifies that the complete gearbox (ZF 4HP20) is filled with auto oil for life. This is unlike the gearbox that preceeded the 4HP20 (and the 24v engine) in the Espace, which was a Renault gearbox and (as far as I know) this one had regular oil changes prescribed.

I beleive that even Mercedes Vito's have these gearboxes specified for lifelong oil. Like it or not - I personally don't like the idea and will have it done every other year on my car.

- Anders



Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


WWW
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2007, 11:18:03 am »

Hi Anders,

Hi José

I respect your need to rant.

But I think you are wrong here. Even in their generic specifications, ZF specifies that the complete gearbox (ZF 4HP20) is filled with auto oil for life. This is unlike the gearbox that preceeded the 4HP20 (and the 24v engine) in the Espace, which was a Renault gearbox and (as far as I know) this one had regular oil changes prescribed.

I beleive that even Mercedes Vito's have these gearboxes specified for lifelong oil. Like it or not - I personally don't like the idea and will have it done every other year on my car.

- Anders

Well, could be... anyway, I have just returned from Renault garage. And, incredibly, I am (relatively) happy  Shocked Shocked Shocked

I have arrived there and the responsible of the mechanics was not there nor the person I know, who is the son of the owner. Great, I have thought  Sad !

But who was there today was the mechanic who did the work on my car. I had a printed list of all the problems I have found so far. Main remaining question was why did they change the water/oil radiator?. And he has been sincere Shocked , telling me that this was after they found heads were perfectly fine!. As I suspected... What I have liked of all of this is that, first, mechanic seems a very competent one and, second, he has not tried to fool me.

So I have talked about all remaining details, leaving the complaint for the management people, another day.

Summing up, what I have found and we have checked on site is:

  • Whistling noise: it seems to come from an air hose, at the left side (front looking). Will be fixed.
  • Stalling engine: I have told him about the temperature sensor theory and he has told me it is very probably the cause. Good thing is that engine has stalled while we were talking  Smiley
  • Cooling circuit dirt: they will replace the expansion tank and clean the circuit. Good thing is that level has been OK so far for 800km Cheesy
  • Leaking heater matrix: I have suggested to try a leaking liquid, as they are going to change coolant anyway... in case it doesn't work, I will do it the proper way myself.
  • Some other small bits (as accelerator pedal stifness): they will fix them.

I have left the Espace again there  Shocked ... I still need to negotiate with managing people about the repairs (the first one and this one). But at least now I know the person who will work on my car and I trust he is a good mechanic (he has driven me home and we have been talking about other mechanical things, engines and so on)

All in all, I am happy with the visit and hope finally things will end in a more satisfactory way  Smiley

Best regards and thanks for listening my comments!

JOSE
Logged

JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
Administrator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2823



WWW
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2007, 01:53:15 pm »

Hi José

Good to hear that you got the communication going, that's really necessary. Far too often, I think, garages keep customers away from the mechanics. Consequence is dissatisfied customers, problems not getting fixed etc. It is a pity that it took so long for you to get where you are now.

About the dirt and the radiator sealant... if you pour sealant in the system you will have a big job afterwards cleaning it. Then why clean it and replace the header tank now? Smiley

The accelerator pedal sometimes goes stiff on mine and I've found that it's the cruise control that somehow "locks up" and will not allow air out of the valve that pulls the throttle. It's a bit annoying, but when it happens, all I have to do is to release the pedal a slight bit, then it's free. Apart from that, the cable itself is also a bit sticky. I have found that if I route it over the airbox then there are fewer bends on it and it is less sticky. It could also be that we just need a new cable.

Temperature sensor seems to be a routine thing Wink They just go all wrong and suddently detect -33 degrees coolant temperature. The diagnostics will show it while it's running.

I really understand your frustrations.

Fingers crossed Wink

- Anders

Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


WWW
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2007, 06:37:06 pm »

Hi Anders and all Forum Members,

Hi José

Good to hear that you got the communication going, that's really necessary. Far too often, I think, garages keep customers away from the mechanics. Consequence is dissatisfied customers, problems not getting fixed etc. It is a pity that it took so long for you to get where you are now.

About the dirt and the radiator sealant... if you pour sealant in the system you will have a big job afterwards cleaning it. Then why clean it and replace the header tank now? Smiley

The accelerator pedal sometimes goes stiff on mine and I've found that it's the cruise control that somehow "locks up" and will not allow air out of the valve that pulls the throttle. It's a bit annoying, but when it happens, all I have to do is to release the pedal a slight bit, then it's free. Apart from that, the cable itself is also a bit sticky. I have found that if I route it over the airbox then there are fewer bends on it and it is less sticky. It could also be that we just need a new cable.

Temperature sensor seems to be a routine thing Wink They just go all wrong and suddently detect -33 degrees coolant temperature. The diagnostics will show it while it's running.

I really understand your frustrations.

Fingers crossed Wink

- Anders


Well, finally after some time (three and a half long weeks since I left it!), I have gone today to pick up my Espace... so long delay has been in part due to a trip to USA I have done in last two weeks, but it seems it took almost 2 weeks to deal with my car...

I asked them to do several things:
  • Fix whistle engine noise: done!. It was an air leak.
  • Add sealant to coolant circuit (to fix heather matrix leak), flush it, replace expansion tank: done!... and it seems heater doesn't leak Shocked
  • Check stiffness in accelarator pedal: done!. Now it is smooth Smiley
  • Change temperature sensor (to prevent stalling and bad starting when warm/hot): done!. Car no longer stalls and always starts  Grin
  • Add a couple of forgotten screws to wheel cover: done!
  • Change autobox oil: done! (yes, I know it could be lifelong... but having replaced the oil/coolant radiator, I feel better this way)

I have paid parts (expansion tank, oil, sealant, sensor, coolant,....) and just one hour labour (flushing circuit). Still, price has been about 250 Euro... but I am happy as all my complaints seem to be fixed by now  Cheesy

Anyway, I will have a meeting with mechanic and garage responsible to talk about the first repair, as I plan to ask for some money back regarding it. I will let you know what happens!

All in all, I am again a happy Espace owner  Grin

Regards,

JOSE
Logged

JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
Administrator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2823



WWW
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2007, 10:41:50 pm »

All in all, I am again a happy Espace owner  Grin

It's great to have you back in that state. And you are also now a much more experienced Espace owner.

- Anders Smiley
Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Pages: 1 2 [3] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to: