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Author Topic: Electrical Instrument problem !!  (Read 13840 times)
RafnaTyr
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« on: February 09, 2008, 08:18:57 pm »

Hi Again Everyone !

I must say I where glad to recieve all the help in the last post, so I'm sort of hoping I'll get luck with this "new" problem...

I just bought myself a Grand Espace 2.0 16v -00 and love it! It has one problem, the instrument panel is... blank :-| Dead as a door nail...
The light turns on, but not the spedometer or any other instrument, further on, when turning, the flashers flash but I can't hear the tick tock sound, aperently that has to do with the same problem, also, the electrical key lock doesn't work either... but the lights work, the flashers and the radio and so on. I mentioned that since someone (the people I bought the car from) said that it's a loose wireing or something in the stearing wheel, and that the problem is not in the dash board. They said that sometimes the spedometer and the rest of the instruments turns on when they are using some of the leverel on the wheel, for example flushing the window, turning on the window wiper and so on...

So far (I bought it yesterday, the 8:th of Februari 08) I have not been able to get them to flicker on for a second even...

I'm sure it's a simple problem once located, but finding it? Can anyone give any hint or tips, I would surely apriciate all the help I can get.

Best regards,
/Eje
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Eje Mähler - Sweden - || Grand Espace 2000 2,0 16v ||
 - || Espace J63 1995 2,2i || - Soon up for sale
Be well, drive safe, see you out on the roads :-)
renaultbiler
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2008, 10:49:46 pm »

Fuses checked i assume?

Radio part dead too ? If not, CAN communication problem ?

Backlight ok ? = Fuses ok

My suggestion is problem with the instrument panel itself, either fault on print or flex-print OR component fault on it. Since the backlight and other functions are powered by the same supply-pin and you have backlight then supply is ok..

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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
RafnaTyr
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2008, 11:22:41 pm »

Hi Tom,

Well I've checked the fuses, they are okey.
Radio part working fine, can change station volume and so on.. what is CAN communication?

Backlight are like you asumed okey as well.

Strange though that everything, not only the digital part is dead, the oil, headlight lamp, hand breake and so on, they are all dead too... strange.

Like I wrote, the people I bought the car from said that they had flicked with the window viper, and then it turned on for a while.

Also strange that the flasher works, front and back, but the ticking sound is gone?
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Eje Mähler - Sweden - || Grand Espace 2000 2,0 16v ||
 - || Espace J63 1995 2,2i || - Soon up for sale
Be well, drive safe, see you out on the roads :-)
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2008, 12:06:39 am »

I'd recommend you get it to a Renault workshop and have a diagnosis run on it. It will be able to tell if there's a problem on the CAN bus (i.e. short circuit or broken wire) or if the display module is just dead. The clicker is also on the display module.
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
roa
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2008, 01:18:39 am »

Hmm  -I believe you might be wrong renaultbiler. My ongoing "display-investigation"  revealed that the backlight has a separate supply! (pin 1 on the connector)

If the control-lamps doesn't work either, the microprocessor is not working.
Since the backlight still works, the connector is probably OK.
You should check that there is 12 volt present at pin 2 at the 12-pin blue connector, in case the wire is broken somewhere between the fuse and the display.

If there is 12 volts going to the display, the problem lies inside the display, leaving 4 typical errors:
1-defective 5v regulator (There are two 5 volt regulators on the circuit board, making 5v from 12v. One is for the CAN-transciever, the other supplies 5v main microprocessor and other IC's controlling the display, remote key lock, the flasher sound and all the control-lamps indicating lights on, flashers, seatbelt, door open, etc etc.)
2-broken track on circuitboard
3-bad soldering
4-crashed processor.

The first 3 "scenarios" are easily repaired, for a electronics DIY'er or professional.
Number 4 is more difficult, but I'm hoping to sort this one out too -sometime...

If the CAN lines are shorted or broken, the display would still show the clock, as long as the 12v is present.
Broken flex-prints cause loss of some display-segments, but hardly all of them.

CAN is the name of the serial protocol used for communication between the display and the main "brain" of the Espace, -the BII unit.

I do not know what else a diagnosis may reveal, but its definately worth a try.








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renaultbiler
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2008, 07:29:00 am »

Hmm  -I believe you might be wrong renaultbiler. My ongoing "display-investigation"  revealed that the backlight has a separate supply! (pin 1 on the connector)

You are right - separate supply from the BII, and Rheostat adjustment connected to BII.

RafnaTyr - can you see any radio information on the display?

I'm afraid a diagnose might reveal nothing if it is a fault with the instrument panel - not much is readable on instrument parameters, all goes over to the BII box.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
RafnaTyr
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2008, 09:31:37 am »

Thanks everyone,

Wow, that was a lot of information ;-) it's going to be interesting "diving" in with this new info.

A question "Roa"; You wrote about
You should check that there is 12 volt present at pin 2 at the 12-pin blue connector, in case the wire is broken somewhere between the fuse and the display.

Where is that pin 2? is it in the fusebox or in the instrument panel? I can tell that the only information / handbooks I have are in Italian, and my Italian is TINY = NONE... So I have not realy any info where all these microprocessors and so on are.

But that was very helpful information I must say, I'll start checking all those options out today, and hope that it's not option 4 :-)

When it comes to the stearing wheel, I guess I can leave that out, it's not around there I guess? Sounds like it's a wire problem or in the panel/dash bord, am I right?

When it comes to "radio information" it's the same, nothing showes up at the panel, only the back light. Not even when I turn the key does the control lams "flicker" on like they should, it's totally blank.
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Eje Mähler - Sweden - || Grand Espace 2000 2,0 16v ||
 - || Espace J63 1995 2,2i || - Soon up for sale
Be well, drive safe, see you out on the roads :-)
renaultbiler
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2008, 09:43:06 am »

Connector and prosessors mentioned are all located on and inside the instrument panel - you have to take the dash-cover off. No big deal, speaker covers off (click) and some torx tools and its off.
Remember that if you need to loosen the instrument panel itself some torx are hidden under some black foam bricks (you'll see what i mean when the dash top is off).

If you have a hair dryer you could try to gently heat up the instrument prosessor (Motorola one) to see if it begins to flicker/turn on - if so you have the common fault for sure. In my oppinnion that is a prosessor fault and not soldering, but me and roa slightly disagree on that *lol*
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 09:45:39 am by renaultbiler » Logged

1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
RafnaTyr
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Posts: 21


Scandinavian rambler...


« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2008, 10:11:28 am »

Great information Tom, thanks so much!

Now I'll get down to business, you might hear a scream of frustration all over to Norway if it doesn't work :-)

It's great to know where to start, feels a bit frustrating having no idea what to look for or where...

Thanks,

/Eje
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Eje Mähler - Sweden - || Grand Espace 2000 2,0 16v ||
 - || Espace J63 1995 2,2i || - Soon up for sale
Be well, drive safe, see you out on the roads :-)
RafnaTyr
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Posts: 21


Scandinavian rambler...


« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2008, 11:41:50 am »

If the control-lamps doesn't work either, the microprocessor is not working.
Since the backlight still works, the connector is probably OK.
You should check that there is 12 volt present at pin 2 at the 12-pin blue connector, in case the wire is broken somewhere between the fuse and the display.

If there is 12 volts going to the display, the problem lies inside the display, leaving 4 typical errors:
1-defective 5v regulator (There are two 5 volt regulators on the circuit board, making 5v from 12v. One is for the CAN-transciever, the other supplies 5v main microprocessor and other IC's controlling the display, remote key lock, the flasher sound and all the control-lamps indicating lights on, flashers, seatbelt, door open, etc etc.)

Well it seems it is something with the microprocessor, or, as mentioned above it can be the 5 volt regulator, since that sounds like my problem, remote key don't work, no flasher sounds, no control lamps or any instrument works either. So, easiest would probably be to take it to a electronic repair shop I assume? Would I need a circuit diagram (or they) where can I get a hold of that in that case?

I've unmounted the circuit board, and also, there was a small circuit board attached to it, on the drivers side, is that the main processor? had a big aluminum protective tin over it, so it seems like it could be, am I right?

I don't realy have any clue what should be my next step, but I'm guessing the electronic repair??

/Eje








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Eje Mähler - Sweden - || Grand Espace 2000 2,0 16v ||
 - || Espace J63 1995 2,2i || - Soon up for sale
Be well, drive safe, see you out on the roads :-)
renaultbiler
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2008, 12:23:25 pm »

The small printboard is the RF antenna/reciever. The Motorola ship commonly faulty is among the biggest chips on the main board.

If i was to put money on this i would put them on faulty chip - saying without seeing and measuring anything myself.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
RafnaTyr
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Scandinavian rambler...


« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2008, 02:48:26 pm »

A quick question, spare parts.. used? anyone have any idea or tips of some good places where I can order used spare parts from.
I'm guessing that bying a new board will be quite expencive?
So, any place in Norway, Denmark, England or... anything goes (as long they ship abroad ;-) )
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Eje Mähler - Sweden - || Grand Espace 2000 2,0 16v ||
 - || Espace J63 1995 2,2i || - Soon up for sale
Be well, drive safe, see you out on the roads :-)
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2008, 06:41:36 pm »

A quick question, spare parts.. used? anyone have any idea or tips of some good places where I can order used spare parts from.
I'm guessing that bying a new board will be quite expencive?
So, any place in Norway, Denmark, England or... anything goes (as long they ship abroad ;-) )

Denmark:

Birkegårdens Autodele, Vinkelvej 54, Brunshåb, 8800 Viborg. Telefon 8667 2286

Stony Renault, Industrivej 3-5, 6070 Christiansfeld, Telefon 74560662.
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2008, 08:52:59 pm »

...and do not buy used, one thing is the mileage but you will not get your PLIP to work either - once PLIP's is programmed to the instrument board you cannot program different ones (yours).
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2008, 10:31:11 pm »

Fortunately I've not had to try them myself yet so don't know about the costs or how good they are but you could maybe take a look at BBA Reman

http://www.bba-reman.com/catalogue/Products.aspx?category=597

They can send you a remanufactured dash panel in exchange for your faulty unit or the best way is for you to send them your own dash, they repair it and send it back.... then you have no problems with the immobiliser or recorded miles/kilometres but obviously you have to be able to take the vehicle off the road for a week or two.

They use UPS so you shouldn't have any major problems (other than with the cost!!) in getting your unit to them quickly and for them to send it back once repaired.

Martin
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 10:33:33 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
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2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
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