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Author Topic: Which type CX gearbox?  (Read 7419 times)
jeko
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« on: March 17, 2008, 07:40:58 pm »

Hi

Today I visited the local CitrŲen dealer. I was naive, and thought that when I told that I needed a syncromes ring for a CX about 1982, I could get one. But no.
You need to know exactly which model the gearbox comes from.
Is there anybody who can tell me the exact CX model?

My car is a 2.2 from 82, but I think that it is the same gearbox for all Murena models.

Jeko
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Oetker
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2008, 09:56:09 pm »

I have some numbers of Peugeot but don't know if they are correct.
They were noted in the manual I bought.

First bearing on input shaft Peugeot 2372.29
Ring synchro  ref. Peugeot 2324.04
Ring synchro 1-2 Peugeot 2324.03
Ring synchro 3-4 Peugeot 2324.04

Maybe you can do something with this.
Take the old stuff with you to compare if possible
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 09:58:09 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Oetker
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2008, 01:47:09 pm »

Around the same price as the citro/peu dealer you can find them in the catalog of simon.de
As far as I can see part 09125 and 09128
Then you are pretty sure you have the correct one.
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Oskar
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2008, 03:57:03 pm »

for those of us in denmark, sweden can probably use www.autofrance.se
he can import everything (almost) thats french
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peugeot 205 gti
murena 1.6
valross
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Bagheera X 1980 + 7 CitroŽn


« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2008, 10:09:43 pm »

The gearbox is called ME5
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roy4matra
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 09:46:22 pm »

Today I visited the local CitrŲen dealer. I was naive, and thought that when I told that I needed a syncromes ring for a CX about 1982, I could get one.  But no.  You need to know exactly which model the gearbox comes from.  Is there anybody who can tell me the exact CX model?

You can't.  The problem is all gearboxes change with time and variation in models, and there are many variations of this box.  The ratios in the version on the Murena tend to be different to most CX versions so the type and part numbers vary.  This is common in the motor industry.  Even the Murena has a possibility of seven variations of the box fitted! '506' '510' '511' '2GE14' '2GE15' '2GE16' '2GE17'

Quote
My car is a 2.2 from 82, but I think that it is the same gearbox for all Murena models.

Jeko

The 2.2 can have the '510' '2GE15' '2GE17' boxes.  Whilst they all had the same gear ratios, things like synchros, selector forks, bearings, etc. can and did change between variations.  This is why you often need exact details.

The other problem is this.  You say you want some synchro rings.  2nd gear synchro often fails but replacing the ring will not cure it.  The problem is that some of the second gears were incorrectly machined and the taper was too small, so the synchro only just touches when new and after a brief period will not longer work as it hits the gear side face before the tapers engage.

I overhauled the box in Anders car with just this problem and had to replace the gear - but you cannot now buy just 2nd gear.  You have to buy a complete new 1st/2nd gear and synchro assembly plus modified bearings to suit as they were modified.  Cost of parts likely to be well over £300 now.

Also the CitroŽn dealers don't list the CX now (too old) so it took some investigating to track down all the right parts, and what was still available, etc.  (I have an updated gearbox parts manual now!)  Also some of the parts are listed as 'back order' and can take three months to get!  I have two 5th gear kits on order since mid Jan. and have been told today I will not get them until end of April.

Try HB Pieces for synchro rings as last time I bought some, he was cheaper than CitroŽn here!
PSA synchro ring part numbers are 2324.03 1st & 2nd,  2324.04 3rd 4th & 5th.

Roy
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 09:13:18 pm by roy4matra » Logged

jeko
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2008, 12:39:10 am »

Hi again

Thanks Roy for your wise words.

Actual, it is the syncro for the 4th gear that is the trouble. After separating the gearbox, I could see that the syncro ring do not lock in the taper as it shall. I took the syncro ring from  3rd gear and tried it in the taper of the 4th gear, and this locks as it shall. So my conclusion is that it will help to get a new syncro ring.

Since I started this question, I've learned a little more about the gearboxes for the Murena. I was told to look at the french site
http://www.espace-murena.com/articles.html
which listed a lot of gearboxes, and some of their differences.
When I investigate the french site, it looks as if 2GE15 and 2GE17 uses the same syncro rings 2324.04, but I can not any numbers for the the '510'.
Next question is, how do I find out, what type of gearbox I have?

To Roy : When you write that you have 2 kits for 5th gear in order, is it then for changing the gearing?
And if, what is the approximately price for this conversion?
 

Best regards Jeko
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roy4matra
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 02:33:51 pm »

... When I investigate the french site, it looks as if 2GE15 and 2GE17 uses the same syncro rings 2324.04, but I cannot find any numbers for the the '510'.

Next question is, how do I find out, what type of gearbox I have?

If you email me some clear photos of your synchro assembly I should be able to tell if you have an early type.  The synchros are different.  I have never seen any numbers on the box to distinguish them!

Quote
To Roy : When you write that you have 2 kits for 5th gear in order, is it then for changing the gearing?
And if, what is the approximately price for this conversion?

Best regards Jeko

Yes it upgrades 5th to a more appropriate ratio.  Approx. 9% higher, so for the same cruise speed your engine revs are lower.  The kit is £290 plus VAT and then you have to fit it.  If you can do this yourself then that just takes a little time. :-)  I can tell you more after you email me with those photos.

Roy
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2008, 01:33:08 am »

I overhauled the box in Anders car with just this problem and had to replace the gear - but you cannot now buy just 2nd gear.  You have to buy a complete new 1st/2nd gear and synchro assembly plus modified bearings to suit as they were modified.

Yes, that took some work by Roy to get right, including - as far as I remember - a good deal of detective work for correct parts and finally a selector fork needing to be machined to a slightly different size of the new gear wheel.

About the syncro ring, I have an interesting photo which Roy sent me of the worn part:



It's interesting to see how the syncro ring looks okay; no significant wear on the inside face. But if you look carefully you'll notice that the side face of the gear wheel is worn! This is not 'normal' wear of a syncromesh. As Roy mentions, the diameter of the recess on the gear wheel must have been machined a slight bit too small when it was originally manufactured. Remember, these were the days before CNC machines!

Because of this, the entire 1st and 2nd gear had to be replaced. But it was worth it:
Roy did a great job on the gearbox; it works like a "knife in butter" Wink now, and could even be better than it was when new? He also fitted the new 5th gear, which I think fits the car perfectly, especially on my engine which has max torque around 3500 rpm, where it is going about 130 km/h (speed limit on danish motorways).
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
macaroni
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2008, 09:10:00 am »

I checked my gearing last night and at an indicated 130km/h (verified by sat nav), my revs were 3000rpm. Assuming my rev counter under-reads by the usual 500rpm, it makes it the same as yours.
I have no record whatsoever of a higher 5th gear being used though.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2008, 11:41:25 pm »

I checked my gearing last night and at an indicated 130km/h (verified by sat nav), my revs were 3000rpm. Assuming my rev counter under-reads by the usual 500rpm, it makes it the same as yours.
I have no record whatsoever of a higher 5th gear being used though.

The standard Murena 2.2 has a gearing of 33.7 kph per 1000 rpm in 5th (according to the manual but if you calculate it mathematically it comes out at 34.8 kph)  so at 3000 rpm you are doing  101.1 kph (63 mph) and you will need 3900 rpm to reach 132 kph (82mph) or 3800 if the mathematical figure is correct.  The Murena rev counters are known to under-read but they vary as to how much!  It is often 500 rpm or more but those figures I've quoted are accurate - you can work them out for yourself.

The higher 5th gearing (31:46 instead of 33:45) gives you a 9% increase approx. so it becomes 36.8 kph per 1000 rpm (or 37.9 calculated) and at 3000 rpm the speed is 110.4 kph and at 3500 128.8 kph

Since both rev counters and speedos can and are inaccurate and sat.nav. is not that accurate (read the specs. for present GPS accuracy) I would suggest that the only way you can say exactly what speed you are doing at what revs is to have both accurately calibrated and verified.  With my high 5th gear fitted, I have seen 160 kph (100 mph) at an indicated 4000 rpm but I don't believe it for one minute!

Roy
P.S. it is possible your car might have an uprated 5th fitted as I eventually bought about 14 kits and I can't remember who bought them all now.  Phil Siddall may have been one Antony.
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