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Author Topic: Price...?  (Read 15488 times)
RazorbackNOR
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« on: April 25, 2008, 08:28:03 am »

Does anybody have a price on converting the Murena to injection? not an exact price, but are we talking about  500€ or 5000€....?

And how much work does it involve....?
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 12:18:29 pm »

Depending on how you want to do it and what result you are aiming for, it could be either. Krede has some experience to share. It you do a complete DIY project with megasquirt ecu, modify the existing manifold to take injectors, use junk yard parts for the project, and do the tuning on the road, you might be able to do it for 500 € and even learn a lot at the same time.

That was my original idea, but the idea has faded a lot with time as the carb does an excellent job already, the project requires a lot of time I can't spare, it won't improve performance significantly, and ultimately I'll convert to sidedraught carbs anyway as that was what my car had when it was modified to original prep 142 in 82.

I have collected some notes here: http://dinsen.net/murena/efi/
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
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krede
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2008, 02:00:35 pm »

The best way to do it, would of cause be to fit a programmeble ECU since, my guess is that you will want to tune it further?
If so, you are looking at 15000 dkr and up... if you want everything to be new.
Otherwise you could look for some used parts on ebay etc.

If you are on a tight budget and are prepared to experiment... Id suggest you get hold of an inlet manifold from a peugeot 505 turbo, its will bolt straight on to the Murena 2.2 engine, and is a complete unit with fuelrail, injectors, pressure regulator and throttlebody.
Furthermore, its design is far superior to the stock murena manifold, in that it has long, seperated inlet runners that will boost low and mid range power.
The throttlebody is ø55mm witch is small... but adequate for about 190-200 hp without causing noticable restriction in airflow.   

With the manifold I would then use a complete wireing airflow meter/harness/sensors/ecu from a similar capacity engine.
The 505 turbo harness seems like an obvious choice, but im not sure wether this can be chipped... otherwise the opel Record 2.2 might be a good place to start as its a pretty basic system, that should be simple to convert for the murena engine.
All you would have to do then , Is take it to bosch and have them run it in and cook up a chip for you.
The cost for parts, I'd guess to be about 3-4000dkr tops if you go for used parts.. add to that the work hours for the fitting (witch I believe you will do yourself) and  about 3-5000 dkr for chipping.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 02:24:17 pm by krede » Logged
RazorbackNOR
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2008, 06:33:07 pm »

Hmm, that wasn't too bad prices... Seems like Pilitecknik have made some sets for this too, but at a rarther hefty price.... Didn't get to much sense out of it, since my french still hasn't improved.

Krede, have you done any of these mods yourself too....? Or anybody else in here....?
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Oskar
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2008, 07:46:35 pm »

wouldnt it be cheaper to convert it to xu9jaz (205 gti) engine with its existing ecu ?

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RazorbackNOR
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2008, 11:19:44 pm »

Oskar, how and what would it involve.....?

And wouldn't that give problms concerning MOT....?
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2008, 07:04:52 am »

wouldnt it be cheaper to convert it to xu9jaz (205 gti) engine with its existing ecu ?

Hardly... engine conversions involve problems with drive shafts, engine mounts, exhaust, gearchange, clutch mechanism - just to name the most obivous. But it depends on what you are trying to achieve, of course. Razorback hasn't told us yet what he's after!? Wink
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
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krede
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2008, 08:05:55 am »

Razor: No I havent actually done the "cheap" option, since my goal has all along been turbo power... and for that a programmable ECU is the best choice (IMHO)

If you search the forum, there is a post somewhere about my throttlebody conversion.
Its a set of Dbilas 45mm on a 40mm politec inlet manifold portet to 45mm.
The ECU is a Wolf3d that I bought off ebay along with the wireing loom and a bunch of sensors connectors and other stuff, at a very reasonable price.
Even so, the project has been bloody expensive so far.. and the power gain has been a bit of a dissapointment... (though the improved drivabillity has not.)

Lennart has had an 1.9 xu engine fitted in his murena.. and it has turned out very well.
Not only is the engine running very well (once he decided to put the right kind of oil in it Tongue ) , but the gearbox is much much better then the cx unit in stock murenas.
Spare and performance parts are also easy and relatively cheap to come by.
BUT!
If you are going for an engine swap , then why not go for the 16v pug out of the mi16.

Sadly though..If I am right , Razors car is a 2.2..... the xu conversion is only supposed to be "easy" in the 1.6.
But Bart should now much more then me.. he has actually done one of those 1.9 conversions... before he went mental and decided to fit a mazda rotary engine instead!  Grin



 
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Bart_Maztra
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2008, 06:17:15 pm »

Speaking of "mental", EFI the cheap way:

This is a manifold for a weber dcoe carb. Kind of simular as 2.2 carbs.  In each runner will come an injector.



From ebay usa i got weld-on injector boss.



I made an airbox from some aluminium and soldered it together with Lumiweld. (great stuff!)



The injector boss is also soldered with lumiweld. The throttle body on top is from an ...eh.... opel.



The cpu is from megasquirt. I mounted the megasquirt efi some years ago on my previous 1.9 engine. Megasquirt is the way to go if you want to spent little money but it takes lots and lots of hours to assemble it and program it.  It is fun and you learn a lot from it. 
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
http://www.megamanual.com/
http://www.maztra.nl/C1900_MS.html

Or spent some more money and less time by doing the same as Krede.
Or start to learn all about carbs and improve yours.
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2008, 07:53:50 pm »

I made an airbox from some aluminium and soldered it together with Lumiweld. (great stuff!)

Nice work, Bart. Lumiweld sounds like just the thing for aluminium repairs. Where did you get it from?
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Bart_Maztra
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2008, 08:24:09 pm »

I bought lumiweld from an exhibitor at goodwood revival. I also saw other exhibitors selling it.  On the classic motorshow in the NEC i bougt some ALUWELD. Which is kind of the same, but different manufacturor.
Now i have tried both and i can tell you: lumiweld is great and aluweld is crap.
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2008, 09:08:56 pm »

I bought lumiweld from an exhibitor at goodwood revival. I also saw other exhibitors selling it.  On the classic motorshow in the NEC i bougt some ALUWELD. Which is kind of the same, but different manufacturor.
Now i have tried both and i can tell you: lumiweld is great and aluweld is crap.

I googled a bit more and this seller came up with a similar product: http://www.durafix.eu/, they even have a dutch site at: http://www.durafix.nl/
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
RazorbackNOR
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2008, 04:08:54 pm »

They look great, but I thought the injectors had to be closer to the head...?

Krede, seems like a rather good idea with the 505 inlet manifold, but why a Opel Record harness/ECU....? What are the differnce between the wolf3D kit you have, and an Megasquirt or other similar?

And yes, I do have the 2.2  Grin

Why do we still need the throttlebody....?
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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2008, 04:32:20 pm »

They look great, but I thought the injectors had to be closer to the head...?

In the ideal situation, where you can design the manifold as you want, it depends on what you want to achieve. Production engines have the injectors spraying fuel directly on the valve as it helps cool it down. Further more, in low air speed situations (i.e. low engine speed) you get a better fuel mix by having the injector close to the valve. But in high speed situations, it's actually better to have the injector a bit away from the valve. Probably because the fuel mist is allowed to shape itself better before hitting the valve and entering the cylinder.

I don't think Krede has had these considerations - but putting it in the throttle body is a good compromise.

Quote
Krede, seems like a rather good idea with the 505 inlet manifold, but why a Opel Record harness/ECU....? What are the differnce between the wolf3D kit you have, and an Megasquirt or other similar?

It's cheap from a scrap yard. Megasquirt is also cheap, but you have to build it yourself then, which takes a LOT of time.

Quote
Why do we still need the throttlebody....?

Because you don't want your engine to run full load all the time Wink

Restricting the amount of air flowing into the engine is the way you regulate it. The ECU then calculates the correct amount of fuel after having measured the air flow.

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
RazorbackNOR
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2008, 05:21:47 pm »

Quote
Quote
Krede, seems like a rather good idea with the 505 inlet manifold, but why a Opel Record harness/ECU....? What are the differnce between the wolf3D kit you have, and an Megasquirt or other similar?


It's cheap from a scrap yard. Megasquirt is also cheap, but you have to build it yourself then, which takes a LOT of time.

Yes I see that one, but why not a 505 harness and parts, since the engines are so similar compared to the Opel.....

Quote
Restricting the amount of air flowing into the engine is the way you regulate it. The ECU then calculates the correct amount of fuel after having measured the air flow.

But I thought the airflowmeter was ahead of the throttlebody.....?


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2010 Mazda 3 1,6  Diesel Gunmetal Blue
1983 Matra Murena 2.2 Platine
50cc Pocketbike
IPSC shooter
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