Weight of the 1442 engine and 4-speed gearbox?

[Fred]

Hello everybody, I've recently bought a 1979 S2 Bagheera which will need quite a bit of work so you may see me around here quite often.

My first question is regarding the engine and transmission.  I got a Chrysler Alpine (Haynes) manual in the post just this morning but I don't see the answer to this ...

... Does anyone know the weight of this 1442cc engine and gearbox?

I haven't started work on the car yet but I have been considering the possibility of an engine swap to something more modern.  (I'm sure some will not approve of this idea but it does seem that the Matra guys wanted a more powerful engine for the Bagheera themselves).

If I decide to go in this direction, I will only contemplate an engine and transmission that will be no heavier (and ideally more lightweight) than the original Simca/ Chrysler Alpine combo.   

[andyowl]

I don't know at the moment but I have both engines and gearboxes + diff that could be weighed given time. How big is the hurry?

I'd be interested in your proposals for more power and/or less weight. It has been done by many before you but using relatively old engines. A Hyabusa with a chain drive would be fun! I have recently seen several fitted in Westfields and Caterhams at sprints.



Andy Owler

[Matra_Hans]

Hi
I am quit sure that you can find the weigth of the engine and gearbox if you make a search in this forum, as I have posted the answer some time last year.
Rigth now I do not have acces to my colection of Simca/ Matra engines, and my internet connnection is not fast enough to make a search.

Hans

[Fred]

I don't know at the moment but I have both engines and gearboxes + diff that could be weighed given time. How big is the hurry?

Hi Andy.  thanks for the quick reply.  There's isn't really a hurry regards commencing work on the project, I'm just trying to look into possibilities at the moment.  Any info. re. weight will be gratefully received.

I'd be interested in your proposals for more power and/or less weight. It has been done by many before you but using relatively old engines. A Hyabusa with a chain drive would be fun! I have recently seen several fitted in Westfields and Caterhams at sprints.

Yes, indeed.  A bike engine would be fun.   There is a company called Z-Cars that does a bike-engine kit for the Mini as well BUT in the case of a Bagheera I think it's a little too anarchic a notion for me to contemplate so I'll stick to a more boring solution!

I believe a Suzuki Swift GTi engine (DOHC 1.3) mated to a Suzuki Samurai (small 4x4 jeep) gearbox is about 90kg (the engine alone is an ultra-light 54kg) but they have 100bhp as standard and may prove difficult to get much more than about 125bhp from easily.

Ideally I'd choose something French.  The PSA 405 Mi16 (all-alloy 1905cc 16v, 160bhp) engine is a possibility (most seem to have made their way into 205 GTi's eventually) but I see that they have some oil-surge issues and I like the idea of something smaller.   


Another possibily is the PSA TU3 (1360cc, found with carb in the 205XS, Citroen AX GT and injected in the AX GTi and 106 XSi) The TU engine series actually replaced the Simca Type 315, which included the 1294cc and the 1442cc which are found in the Bagheera series 1 & 2 respectively.  An English guy who's name escapes me at the moment runs a Peugeot 106 hillclimb car with a 1360cc TU3 mated to a 16v head (106GTi if I remember correctly) and his car produces about 190bhp! 


My current favourite:  The Yamaha designed Ford Sigma (aka Zetec SE), first introduced about 1995 and fitted in the Fiesta, Puma, Focus in 1.25, 1.4, 1.6 and 1.7 variants.  The 1.7 from the Puma has variable valve timing so apparently from a tuning perspective the 1.6 is the popular choice.   It's all-alloy and weight is around 80kg with ancillaries which isn't too bad at all!   The 1.6 produces 99bhp at 6000rpm but it's possible to get up to 220bhp (at a cost) using standard valves. 

It may not be French but it's a worldwide engine, close in capacity to the Bagheera's original 1300/1500 and with Matra having a history of using Ford engines, this makes it seem 'right' too. 

Here are the dimensions of the Ford Sigma engine:



larger: http://sv1.imagefire.net/image/29113047ea7a.png

[Fred]

Hi
I am quit sure that you can find the weigth of the engine and gearbox if you make a search in this forum, as I have posted the answer some time last year.
Rigth now I do not have acces to my colection of Simca/ Matra engines, and my internet connnection is not fast enough to make a search.

Hans

Thanks Hans.  I did a couple of searches under your user name but did not find the results. 

[Matra_Hans]

Well I have just been checking my entries on matrasport.dk and it was a different engine gearbos cobination, but I do not think that the weigth is very different as the angines are the same only the stroke is different.

quote
I have just put a 1.6 engine with gearbox (Peugeot BE1 gearbox) on a scale and the weight is exactly 150 kg.
unquote

Hans

[Matra_Hans]

.. and if you want that Bagheera to be on the road in Denmark with a valid MoT you need to make some considerations regarding what will be acceptable for the vehicle inspection staff and "Færdselsstyrelsen" with reference to Krede´s posting in the Danish section of this forum today.

Hans

[Fred]

Thanks again Hans,  I will add my location to my profile (I'm in the UK).

[lewisman]

Hi Fred

Welcome to the forum.  I once considered fitting a Lancia Beta twin cam into a Bagheera that I had bought for spares (around 1989!) as I had one lying around.  At the end of the day it seemed a bit heavy to me and I never got round to it.  It had the advantage of lying at roughly the correct angle.

The problem with a lot of alternative engines is that you will probably need to re-locate the fuel tank.

Which Baggy did you buy?

[Bart_Maztra]

I have weight my previous engine.
peugeot 205 gti 1.9 engine + gearbox + intake + alternator = 150 kg.

[Matra_Hans]

It seems that the original Simca engine and a Peugeot 205 GTi are weighing the same. So the ride height does not have to be adjusted if you change to the Peugeot engine.
Hans

[Spyros]

Mi16 (or actually a similar one) have already been adapted to a Bagheera (and is running)

I know several of them.

Try to remember that you'll have to angle the engine and that it would be better to keep the exaust away from the tank

I, I prefer to continue on my idea :


or




The blue block is about to be back together. Not yet sure about the carbs or injection

[Fred]

Hi Fred

Welcome to the forum.  I once considered fitting a Lancia Beta twin cam into a Bagheera that I had bought for spares (around 1989!) as I had one lying around.  At the end of the day it seemed a bit heavy to me and I never got round to it.  It had the advantage of lying at roughly the correct angle.

The problem with a lot of alternative engines is that you will probably need to re-locate the fuel tank.

Which Baggy did you buy?

Thanks Lewisman.    I bought a non-running 1979 Bagheera S of eBay, unseen.  Quite risky but I've always wanted one.