BAGHEERA and "other" engine - testing

[Lanng]

Dear all Baggy fans

I am new to the forum - but the family (my mother) had a BAGHEERA in the early 80´s which rusted away and was replaced with a Alfa Sprint.
Today I drive a Saab c900 Aero and want to get into race/rally so the BAGHERRA seemed to be an odd but very potent choice. I love the design (I am an architect) and understand that the handling is superb.

However the 1.5l engine seems to be a bit to small for the car so was wondering if something more ressourcefull could be used. I did my www search and it seems that the following engines are good candidates:
- PSA 1.6/1.9 GTI
- Alfa V6
- Saab 9000 (hopefully Saab version - not the GM version); would´nt mind going turbo but I assume there might be a problem with heat and space for the intercooler.
- Honda??? Is it possible?
- Alfa 1.7 boxer (low point of gravity)?
- Subaru boxer engine (low point of gravity)?
But there is not much info to get hold of also the breaks need to be improved. I would prefere to use a Saab or Honda engine as the V6 might be to heavy. I have no experience with PSA engines - well I did have a 1.8 8V Citroen ZX; good engine but very boring

I havent got a BAGHERRA yet, but its either that or anoter c900 - and would prefere to go light and nimble when it comes to racing.

I hope I havent board you with all my ideas and lack of knowledge.

Best regards
Lanng

PS. I found this "beast" in Denmark - have anyone any knowledge of this car?
http://www.dba.dk/asp/soegning/detail.asp?annonceid=57184488

[Matra_Hans]

I think that you need to have a closer look at a Bagheera before you consider your engine swop: The Alfa and Subaru boxer engines will have to be placed under the seats. As I remember the Saab engines are placed longitudinally which means that SAAB engine will have to be placed where the Bagheera has its center seat  or you can turn the drive unit around and place the engine in the boot.
However there are already treads on this forum regarding alternative engines which you could check out and get some inspiration.

Hans

[suffolkpete]

you can turn the drive unit around and place the engine in the boot. 

You will also need to find a way of making it run in the opposite direction unless you want a car with five reverse gears and one forward 

[Lanng]

Thanks for the quick reply!

To Hans (and SuffolkPete):
The Saab 99,90 and 900 had the longitudinal mounted engine - but it was mounted backwards. The Saab 9000 and GM900 had a transverse mounted engine. The early (up to 1993) was a genuine Saab engine with is very solid and reliable.

However I havent been able to find any engine swap details on the Saab engine and very little in general on engine swap for the Bagherra - there is some to be found on the Matra Murena. There are good resources on the Pug. 205 engine, some one the ALfa v6 and just pic on the Volvo engine swap.

Best regards
Lanng

[Matra_Hans]

I actually know the Bagheera which you have spotted on dba.dk, as I have done some work on it for a previous owner.
In my opinion the car is in good shape without rust in the chassis but that is very difficult to find out on a Bagheera without stripping the car down completely.
The car has a few modifications.
•A small front spoiler which looks OK.
•Instead of the original rear window the car has a Ferrari style hatch at the back which is not really to my liking.
•The car has “oversize” wheels and as far as I remember small modifications were necessary in order to create space for the bigger wheels.
•The engine and gearbox has been changed from the original 1442 cc engine and 4 speed gearbox to a 1.6 Solara unit with a 5 speed gearbox. The Solara engine is a larger capacity version of the 1442cc engine but the horsepower output are almost identical for the two engine types.
•The cabin does not have the original seats arrangement with three seats across, but the car is fitted with two aftermarket sports seats. This I think is a big disadvantage as the seat arrangement with three seats was a major part of MATRA’s design philosophy and without the original seating arrangement the Bagheera has lost its “soul”.

In my humble opinion this Bagheera is far too good to be used for racing and also too expensive for a racing project.

Hans

[Anders Dinsen]

Hi Lanng

Welcome to the forum. I hope you will find what you are looking for.

In my humble opinion this Bagheera is far too good to be used for racing and also too expensive for a racing project.

I agree, tt is too expensive.

I think the biggest problem with Bagheera as a race car is - as Andy Owler is also facing - its lack of power and the fact that there was never a homologated more powerful version available. This means that it is just not competitive with similarly aged historic racers like (smaller engined, but far lighter) Mini Coopers, or various Lotus'es (with much more power but similar weight). You are therefor looking at "club racing" for modified cars, where it will be up against everything and anything.

It's a pity, because I think the Matra's deserve to be shown to the public and historic racing is a good way to do it. And the glass fiber construction favours it, actually, because it's easy to repair damage. Take a look at this photo of a Lotus Elan which suffered serious rear body damage in training at CHGP 2009, but was able to complete the whole weekend despite the crash 

http://gallery.dinsen.net/v/2009/chgp/DSC_6489.JPG.html

(I'm not implying that you should TRY to make your racing Bagheera look like this Elan , but if you race, you should be prepared to take "punishment" like that!)

I personally don't think the classes for modified cars are as interesting as historic racing. It might be just as much fun (perhaps even more?), but spectators won't come to see the cars, but to see the race. Matra's deserve the publicity, IMO

However, Lanng - that's just my opinion. Your idea sounds like a great project, and I think you should go on with it. Find a reasonably good Bagheera in a restorable state, fit a Peugeot 2 litre 16V engine, preserve the looks of the car as much as you can (because it's a beauty!), and RACE IT. Seat's will have to go as you will of course strip the interior completely and fit a cage, race seat, etc. Look at Andy Owler's thread about roll cage for very useful information.

The Peugeot engine will ensure that your car still has a bit of "originality". And it has been done before.

Good luck. I'll look forward to hearing more about your project!

/Anders

[Spyros]

I think the biggest problem with Bagheera as a race car is  the fact that there was never a homologated more powerful version available.

Anders,

I think you are overlooking some cars there.
The car of Thérond had a bit more than 100 Bhp.
It competed in several international rallyes. So there must have been an homologation.

Also, we can think about a particular Bagheera with 168 bhp...

But of course, I totaly agree on the general opinion.

Spyros

[Anders Dinsen]

Spyros, thanks for correcting me. I'm obviously not a Bagheera expert

The car of Thérond had a bit more than 100 Bhp.
It competed in several international rallyes. So there must have been an homologation.

What engine did it use? And was it the standard transversal layout or similar to the later Murena rally cars with longitudally mounted engine, custom gearbox and heavily modified suspension.

Also, we can think about a particular Bagheera with 168 bhp...

The U8 - of course. How could I forget that!? But that was just a prototype...

/Anders

[Spyros]

I need to check my doc to tell you the cam profile but it was a standard 1290 cc, no custom gearbox, suspension was higher, a bit. And lots of lighening out of a chassis specially built with a thinner gauge of steel

[Anders Dinsen]

I need to check my doc to tell you the cam profile but it was a standard 1290 cc, no custom gearbox, suspension was higher, a bit. And lots of lighening out of a chassis specially built with a thinner gauge of steel

Interesting. I'd like to know

Politecnic lists a Gr.2 cam with 260 degrees inlet and 296 degrees exhaust. That sounds like a strange profile to me, so the numbers may be wrong?

/Anders

[Bart_Maztra]

In Holland someone put a saab 900 turbo engine in a murena. For racing use only. It was a transversal engine.

Honda engines are the ohter way around than regular engines. I mean engine left, gearbox right.  That might be more challenging to build in.

[Spyros]

About 10 years ago, I bought one of these 260 X 296 camshaft.

It is sitting in one of my engines.
Before closing the engine, I mesured it and the values are different.

The lift is indeed 7.6 (I think this is the maximum possible by regrounding a standard cam that is not toobadly worn. But most racing simca R2 are equiped with cams giving 8 or more lift, so no reground but billet cams)

The cam has 295 degrees of inlet and no 260 and also 295 degrees of outlet (maybee 296)

Sometimes what you get from these vendors are strange.
I have a Simca 1200 S engine awaiting his pistons to be closed.
The camshaft is supposed to come from CatCams but CatCams is not selling this profile...
The lift is of 6.5, which is not on their catalog

See here : http://www.catcams.be/800x600/prod01Alist.htm?PN63001xx.js... or here : http://www.daluz-developpement.com/produits,14,93,1.html
(I believe they are selling the same products)

[Lanng]

Found the link for the Saab 2.0 turbo powered Murena

http://home.hccnet.nl/wobbe.bouma/

Very interesting as they are VERY good and powerfull eingines! However they create a lot of heat and I assume that mounting a intercooler (if in front) will lead to long ducting resulting in a big turbo lag. The Saab engines will take up to 250hk without much improvement - even 380hk is seen in the old c900 however the gearboxes and clutch can NOT take that kind of punishment.

It looks like the Murena is more suited for racing as there are more options for tuning and improving on a "tight budget" and easier to get a hold of a no-rust example.

/// Lanng

[Anders Dinsen]

About 10 years ago, I bought one of these 260 X 296 camshaft.
...
The cam has 295 degrees of inlet and no 260 and also 295 degrees of outlet (maybee 296)

That sounds more likely. You don't have it installed in a car yet? I've got a cam with similar period on my Murena, and it's a lot of fun on the road with great torque at 4000 rpm and peak power well above 6000 rpm.

Sometimes what you get from these vendors are strange.
I have a Simca 1200 S engine awaiting his pistons to be closed.
The camshaft is supposed to come from CatCams but CatCams is not selling this profile...
The lift is of 6.5, which is not on their catalog

See here
...

Yes, it can be confusing.

I took a look at Cat Cams' catalogue. Intersting stuff. They have a 331 degrees cam for the engine. That sounds like a wonderful starting point for a ridiculous race engine! I don't dare guessing on the max power, but it will probably take very special components to make it run perfectly.

It would be nice to know what spec's were ever homologated.

It looks like the Murena is more suited for racing as there are more options for tuning and improving on a "tight budget" and easier to get a hold of a no-rust example.

Sorry for hijacking your thread!

You might well be right about the Murena, but I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve. It shoulnd't be impossible to find a good Bagheera at a reasonable price. At least one that's good enough to serve as a basis for a race car project.

/Anders

[Matra_Hans]

Hi
If you are looking for a powerfull engine for a "Racing Bagheera" why not go for a Ford Fokus RS engine it comes with 300+ hp. Then you will not have to think of any engine up grades.

Hans