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Author Topic: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring  (Read 18159 times)
JL
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2010, 03:09:44 pm »

Pete

Do you know the dipstick part number by any chance?

Regards
John
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Oetker
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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2010, 03:13:36 pm »

Peugeot nummer 1172.84
Zit ook in sommige 205 GTI
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
suffolkpete
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« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2010, 07:58:33 pm »

That's right, they're £25 plus VAT plus postage.  If you're searching the stock list, omit the full stop.
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JL
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« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2010, 06:06:54 pm »

Thanks for the information guys.
Regards

John
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Oetker
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2011, 12:51:33 am »

Opened my spare gearbox.
This is the second gear with synchro.
It is 0.1mm so this is what the problem is about.


Looking at the surface of the gear where the synchro hits, the problem is clear.


Did some measurements on the synchro but you can see right away what is wrong with the gear.
Here 2 pictures of both sides of the synchro.



It is clear to me.
The conic part of the gear has a wrong angle, and is to small.
That was the easy part, now to find the right gear Huh
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 08:19:10 am by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2011, 11:55:00 am »

Opened my spare gearbox.
This is the second gear with synchro.
It is 0.1mm so this is what the problem is about.
-----
It is clear to me.
The conic part of the gear has a wrong angle, and is to small.
That was the easy part, now to find the right gear Huh
Exactly the problem I had last year, and now again. The new synchro ring lasted less than 6 months. Angry

Philbert has suggested, and I intend to follow his suggestion, to have the synchro ring hard-chrome plated. That will add enough thousands to the thickness on the inside surfaces, so that hte ring will ride higher on the gear cone. Also it should resist wear better. The possible reduction in drag between grear and ring should be minor.

I am wondering if Matra ever fixed the problem in later models and if there exist a new partnumber for gear and/or synchro ring.  Huh Huh Huh
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Matranaut par excellence Cool
Oetker
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« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2011, 02:18:13 pm »

I also think that the angle is wrong and not only the diameter of the cone, but it is all still under investigation.
Citroen had them updated for there own cars. and not only this gear.
I don't want to jump to conclusion before I sorted this all out (NB: if possible)
I already found doc for several updates for Murena gearboxes, but nothing is mentioned about the second gear.
I bought myself a second spare gearbox from a later Murena (82 with 70.000 miles.).
The car was destroyed by a accident and was OK.
This will be opened for gathering info.
I also will try to collect info from Harry Martens Limmen, Citroen gear specialsist
Need the time to go there, and try to find answers.
I hope for help there.
To be cont.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 11:27:23 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Oetker
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« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2013, 09:53:16 pm »

The solution.

It took me ages to fix the gearbox but I wanted to have all things sorted out.
It's not something I want to do twice.
I took my gearbox from the 1.6 (1981) apart.
Synchro 2e and 2e gear  together.

It is warned out as we saw before.

New synchro on the old gear.


Ther is only 0.6 mm between synchro and gear so a problem to reuse.


Ater spitting out all documentation from Citroen CX1 and CX2 I found out that you can use the second gear wheel from this cars but need to be later then 1980 construction date.
To get a better gearwheel I made use of a old friend, Leontien at http://www.hydraulique.nl/
She is a lovely specialist on Citroen.




She looked up some gears and syncro's from the spare parts room.



Here you see 2 Murena gears left and 1 CX gear on the right.


0.95mm with the new synchro.

It is pretty clear the CX-gear is the better one but would it fit the Murena box?
I desided to use this gear in the box and replace top primary bearing and seals.
I mounted the 2nd gear on the axle.
Because of the new gear a little to much play was here.

It has to be no higher then 0.05mm but it was almost 0.1 mm.
I ordered new rings at Simon and he has them in several sizes as pointed out in the doc.

Now it is OK.



Seal at the primary. (21.9x47x8/6.3 mm) odd Americain size so I used standard 22x47x8.


Also in the differential 2 pieces (35x50x7)


New primary bearing.



Another warned out part.
The fork of the 2nd gear.


I used one from a 2.2 gearbox and it fitted OK.


Mounted all parts with new seals.


Replaced this for better one and mounted the modification seals and rubber.



Feels very tight and good.



Ready to build in.


Test movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZR_YGUX7UU&feature=em-upload_owner

Mounting the box in the car.
Everything ready to mount including new clutch set and new axles.




The car runs very well with the CX gear and silent bearings.

But now the clue.
What went wrong with the gears you may ask.
Some info came from a fellow member of the club that bought a new 2.2 1982 Murena in Brussel.
After a few months he received a letter (NB:it is in my posession now) where he was asked to bring the car in for a new gearbox.
There was no problem with the car but the car was in warranty and as he was a good friend of the car-dealer he was one of the few that had the problem sorted out.
After the year warranty most owners could shake it.

Harry Martens from Limmen is a specialist in CX Gearboxes provided me some info.
It seems that CX gearboxes produced before 1980 had gears and synchro's with a different angle on the synchro part.
This is what Roy also pointed out.
It is logical that this gears and syncro's can't be mixed up.
That is exactly what happened.

A second problem is that Peugeot synchro-rings have the same ordering number for old and new synchro.
You can recognise the old type rings.
The old type ring has the 3 dips in the ring (white marks) and are produced before 1980.


The solution is to find newer gears from CX (after 1980) and use the newer type synchro.
If you have the newer set and not enough space between synchro and gear, you can machine a bit of from the ring to make it work again.
(This tip came from Harry Martens himself)
Didn't try that yet, but have some gearboxes around here with the same problems to play with.

I hope this clears things out.

Best regards Herman

« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 05:18:41 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2013, 06:16:13 pm »

Super job and great detailed description of problem and its solution. Grin Grin Grin
I still have not fixed my gear box after the new synchro ring wore out. Various problems had priority and the Murena has not seen work, except a brake job in order to pass the MOT. Now I am retired and should have time to fix it, but lack a proper space to work on the car. (Need to build a carport, but city won't let me at the spot I want it  Angry )
I do not have more spares, so I will probably try to fix it by machining a fraction off the thickness of the ring on side against the gear. Possibly also take a bit off the gear itself, until the clearance is at least 0.95mm.
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Matranaut par excellence Cool
Oetker
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« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2013, 08:43:55 am »

But then you still need a better gear because you bought the newer type synchro ring and it died fast.
The old type synchro is impossible to find.
My second gear runs flawless with the CX gear.
Another problem appeared.
After several months of use now it slips out of 3th gear when hitting the throttle.
That is a problem with the dog-theet gear that handle the shifting 3-4
Now I am really pissed.
After making a secure job I still need to do it again. Cry
Well, it's a Matra and this cars are full of suprizes.

regards Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
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