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Author Topic: New Piper 2.2 Camshaft  (Read 13271 times)
roy4matra
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« on: February 11, 2016, 12:02:09 pm »

I am rebuilding a Murena 2.2 engine at the moment and since the camshaft has a couple of lobes badly worn, (not uncommon as we know!) I will need another cam.  I could have looked for a good second hand one, but these are rare and likely to be costly and you are never sure how good they are going to be.  I could have gone to Simon or Politechnic but again they are expensive and there is also the large postage to take into account too.  So I am getting some brand new cams made by Piper Camshafts in Kent.

They will make these new from blank billets and since they are starting from a blank, the cam profile can also be whatever I choose.  Now for a road car, I have always been happy with the Holbay 58C profile (more commonly known as the Tornado) which brings the standard cam up to roughly 'S' performance.  In fact in my experience it is better, and this is, I speculate, due to the wider timing with 296 degrees valve period rather than the 279 degrees that the 'S' has.  However, the Holbay 58C did not have as much valve lift as the 'S' and we know the 'S' uses standard valve springs without any problems, so I believe the Holbay profile could be improved further without needing different valve springs, or compromising the drivability or fuel consumption.  My plan is to have these new cams made with a similar profile to the Holbay 58C but with a similar lift to the 'S' which should improve the power level further.  As Piper are well versed with cams and profiles they are looking into this for me and will tell me what they finally recommend.

Obviously the cams will not be cheap as they are being made to order, but they will be brand new, using modern material and technology and ideal case hardening and should be better all round.  As a one-off, the cam would have been around £1600 plus tax, but by having a few made I can get that cost down, and so I have asked for three (one for the engine I'm rebuilding for a customer, one for me, and one for another club member) and the cost will be just over £1,000 including VAT.

If there is anyone on the forum that would like one of these cams I'm sure they would do more and the unit cost could come down a bit more, but they have to be all done together for this saving.  So if anyone wants one, they need to commit now with a £250 deposit and I will confirm the numbers with Piper.  They are busy at this time (probably with new racing season work) so the cams may take as much as four months before they are ready.

Regarding the oversize pistons for these engines, some time ago I thought the price was too high and even a supplier here thought he could do much better, so I asked if anyone was interested in new pistons once I got a costing.  In the end the supplier did not even get back to me obviously as he never did get a better price, and I then checked out a few companies myself both in the U.K. and the States, and none of them could come up with a better price than Simon Auto, so I eventually bought some from him.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 12:26:44 pm by roy4matra » Logged

GP
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 09:04:10 am »

Hi y'all
This is a pretty special opportunity to obtain a brand new cam shaft with a new profile.
I've been helping out people over the years with used cams, but now I've reached the stage where I need to look after my future requirements, so I have paid my deposit and watched the price drop substantially!
Roy is going to a lot of effort on this project, so if I were you I would recommend to take advantage of this and seriously think about placing an order with him, then we can all win on price.

Pip Pip,

Graham

UPDATE: TOO LATE, THE ORDER AND DEPOSITS ARE IN.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 07:59:19 pm by GP » Logged
Patrick Bulten
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2020, 11:36:15 am »

Hello Graham,

I was wondering how it goes with youre new camshaft? is it better dan a normal Holbay58C profile?
I bought last week a pair of solex c40 addhe carbs, but i saw that it only work with a other cam.
I have on my murena a 4 in 1 exhuist system and i want to make a alu airbox witch a cold air intak frome below.

Now i was wondering which cam profile is the best with my setup and do you have the information about it for me so that ik can ask companies of that is posiible to make, by grinding welding up en grinding the right profile. 

Another question is what nozzles en venturi's do i have to put in de carbs.

Thanks

Patrick
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roy4matra
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2020, 07:47:02 pm »

Hello Graham,

I was wondering how it goes with youre new camshaft? is it better dan a normal Holbay58C profile?

Whilst Graham will no doubt answer you in due course Patrick, I know he has not fitted his yet but the Piper cam will definitely be much better than the Holbay 58C fast road profile, since I made sure it would be when I asked Piper to produce the cams for us.

The Holbay fast road cam profile is good, but only had 7.06mm cam lift whereas the Piper has 8.3mm cam lift (which is even more than the Murena 'S' cam - 7.4mm) and it has even wider opening periods of around 300 degrees (exact spec: 298 from 10 thou after opening to 10 thou before closing) compared to 296 degrees for the 58C and only 279 for the 'S'.

The only Murena on the road with the Piper cam at this moment is Colin's which has proven to be really good, and sounds great too. (see: https://youtu.be/SshUuzQe3-s and this was only shortly after the rebuild and not using full revs)  I have built the second for Ian but the rest of his car is having work done so it has not been run yet.  I am building my own engine at the moment with the third Piper cam and Graham's will be the last of the four a little later.

Quote
I bought last week a pair of solex c40 addhe carbs, but i saw that it only work with a other cam.

If these twin Solex 40 ADDHE were set up for a Murena 'S' or Prep 142, then they will not be much use for the Piper cam, but like any of these twin side-draught carbs. they can be set up for many engine configurations simply by changing venturis, and jets.  If your carbs. were not from a Murena, they may have come off an Alfa and since they had a smaller capacity, they may be even set up for a lower air volume.  The Murena Solex carbs. had 34mm venturis where as the Piper will not give its best unless the venturis are at least 36 or 37mm.

So the first thing is to know exactly to what specifications your Solex are set.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 08:05:38 pm by roy4matra » Logged

GP
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 07:06:12 pm »

Hi Patrick,

Roy has answered your question. He is correct that I have not fitted mine yet.

Good luck with your project anyway.

Graham
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Patrick Bulten
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2020, 08:40:44 am »

Hello Graham,

I was wondering how it goes with youre new camshaft? is it better dan a normal Holbay58C profile?

Whilst Graham will no doubt answer you in due course Patrick, I know he has not fitted his yet but the Piper cam will definitely be much better than the Holbay 58C fast road profile, since I made sure it would be when I asked Piper to produce the cams for us.

The Holbay fast road cam profile is good, but only had 7.06mm cam lift whereas the Piper has 8.3mm cam lift (which is even more than the Murena 'S' cam - 7.4mm) and it has even wider opening periods of around 300 degrees (exact spec: 298 from 10 thou after opening to 10 thou before closing) compared to 296 degrees for the 58C and only 279 for the 'S'.

The only Murena on the road with the Piper cam at this moment is Colin's which has proven to be really good, and sounds great too. (see: https://youtu.be/SshUuzQe3-s and this was only shortly after the rebuild and not using full revs)  I have built the second for Ian but the rest of his car is having work done so it has not been run yet.  I am building my own engine at the moment with the third Piper cam and Graham's will be the last of the four a little later.

Quote
I bought last week a pair of solex c40 addhe carbs, but i saw that it only work with a other cam.

If these twin Solex 40 ADDHE were set up for a Murena 'S' or Prep 142, then they will not be much use for the Piper cam, but like any of these twin side-draught carbs. they can be set up for many engine configurations simply by changing venturis, and jets.  If your carbs. were not from a Murena, they may have come off an Alfa and since they had a smaller capacity, they may be even set up for a lower air volume.  The Murena Solex carbs. had 34mm venturis where as the Piper will not give its best unless the venturis are at least 36 or 37mm.

So the first thing is to know exactly to what specifications your Solex are set.

Roy

Thank you for your anser! The solex carb are not from a Murena S so i have to look what is inside de carb. I found also this on the forum about adjustment of the carb

have kept a record of all my tuning and experiments, and here are the jets and venturis I'm running now on my 40 DCOE's with Holbay cam and standard 2.2 head:

Summer   Winter
Venturi   36   36
Aux   4.5   4.5
Idle jets   45F9   45F9
Idle Screws (L to R)   5/8   5/8
Main jets   130   135
Emulsion tubes   F9   F9
Air correctors   200   200
Float level (mm)      7.5   7.5
Fuel  press (bar)      0.15   0.15
Pump jet   45   45
Pump bleed   40   40
Static idle adv (deg)   15   15
   
Good luck!
   
/Anders

So if i changes the jets to and venturi to this is would be work? Or is the difference of weber and solex differrence for setup.

And how many horsepower wil i get with this setup and a piper cam and a 4 in 1 exhaust?
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roy4matra
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2020, 10:49:25 am »


Thank you for your anser! The solex carb are not from a Murena S so i have to look what is inside de carb. I found also this on the forum about adjustment of the carb

Quote
A reply from Anders Dinsen...

I have kept a record of all my tuning and experiments, and here are the jets and venturis I'm running now on my 40 DCOE's with Holbay cam and standard 2.2 head:

Summer   Winter
Venturi   36   36
Aux   4.5   4.5
Idle jets   45F9   45F9
Idle Screws (L to R)   5/8   5/8
Main jets   130   135
Emulsion tubes   F9   F9
Air correctors   200   200
Float level (mm)      7.5   7.5
Fuel  press (bar)      0.15   0.15
Pump jet   45   45
Pump bleed   40   40
Static idle adv (deg)   15   15
  
Good luck!
  
/Anders

So if i changes the jets to and venturi to this is would be work? Or is the difference of weber and solex differrence for setup.

And how many horsepower wil i get with this setup and a piper cam and a 4 in 1 exhaust?

First Patrick, you cannot translate exactly between Weber DCOE and Solex ADDHE carburettors,, because of their different designs, but you could use those settings as a starting point for setting up the Solex carbs.

However, that set up which Anders has provided is for the Holbay 58C cam re-profile, and the Piper 3777 cam is very different, so that set up will NOT be correct for setting your Solex to suit the Piper cam.  I would also say that in all likelihood you will need 45 size carburettors to get the best out of the Piper so your Solex 40's are too small.

As for power output, the only way to set up any twin side-draught carburettors properly is to do it on a rolling road, and you can also take the power readings at the same time.  I would expect that with twin 45's and 38mm venturis and the optimum set up, the power output might be in the region of 160 bhp. (which is a substantial increase from the true 134 bhp that a Murena 'S' gave)

One further question Patrick.  The carburettors should have a small aluminium tag with a coding on them.  Can you please let me know what that coding is, thanks.

Roy
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 04:19:50 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Patrick Bulten
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2020, 02:35:01 pm »

Hello Roy,

Sorry for my late replay, i have found the coding numbers on the carb

116.78.04
011.02

Patrick
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roy4matra
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2020, 06:26:47 pm »

Hello Roy,

Sorry for my late replay, i have found the coding numbers on the carb

116.78.04
011.02

Patrick

Thanks.  That is not one that I have any knowledge of, and I can't find any listing for these twin Solex carbs. but I would say it certainly looks like an Alfa Romeo type code, but for which model there is no way to tell.

So the only way I can know how much would need to be altered is to know the exact specification of these ones you have.  As stated previously, I would need to know the Auxiliary venturi size, the venturi size, the main jet, emulsion tube, air correction jet, idle jet, pump jet, needle valve, float weights, etc.  In other words you will need to totally strip them and record all the specifications.  That will give us some idea what size engine they came from maybe, but more important we can see what is likely to need to be changed to suit a tuned Murena.  However, the state of tune will need to be known and in fact the only real way to set them up is on a rolling road.

When you strip them, make sure you have them on a bench with a clean light coloured towel so that any small items that drop out will not bounce or roll away.  Pay particular attention to the pump jet weights, springs and tiny ball bearings as you do not want to damage the delicate spring, nor lose the ball.

Roy
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 10:04:32 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Classicman
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2023, 06:47:33 am »

I know this is an old post, but wondering if anyone has one of these cams lying around?

I contacted Piper and they are prepared to do another run of 5 units, so if there are four other interested parties out there .....?
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roy4matra
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2023, 02:59:37 pm »

I know this is an old post, but wondering if anyone has one of these cams lying around?

I doubt anyone one will have one of these 'lying around' Nick, first because I ordered the originals, to order, so there were just the number made for those that paid for them; and second, since anyone paying over 1,000 GBP for a new camshaft and uprated valve springs, is hardly likely to leave them 'lying around'.

Quote
I contacted Piper and they are prepared to do another run of 5 units, so if there are four other interested parties out there .....?

I struggled originally to get any others except the three that bought them alongside myself, so best of luck trying to get another four buyers.  To rebuild these engines properly will usually cost upwards of 2,000 GBP and that is if you don't factor in labour costs as you can do it yourself, and before a new camshaft costing half that again.  And then there is the addition carriage of parts out to Australia.

How bad is the camshaft in that yellow Murena?  Surely there must be a motor engineering company over there that can uprate the cam you have, like Holbay used to do here.  A Murena 2.2 owner near Perth in WA has been in my car here and experienced the performance of a 2.2 with a Holbay 58C re-profiled cam, single twin venturi down-draught Weber carb. and stainless four-into-one exhaust system, and whilst it is not up to the level the Piper 3777 will give, it is more than adequate for a 40 year old sports coupé that handles extremely well.  These Murena will never match some of the fast cars of today with fuel injection and more modern everything, so you have to decide on just how much performance you want from it and whether the rest of the car is up to that.  Too much power starts to overcome the other things in its old design such as brakes, and tyres, with good sports tyres for 14" wheels becoming more difficult every year.  

Roy
« Last Edit: November 18, 2023, 01:36:12 am by roy4matra » Logged

roy4matra
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2023, 02:51:16 pm »

I know this is an old post, but wondering if anyone has one of these cams lying around?

I contacted Piper and they are prepared to do another run of 5 units, so if there are four other interested parties out there .....?

Just a brief update Nick as there is someone else considering a Piper cam at the moment, so the possibility of getting another 5 made, might be a bit closer.  Are you still interested in one, or have you sorted your Murena with another cam or had your own cam modified?  If you have got yours running well again, I would be interested to hear about it, either by direct email to me, or if you wish to share it here, I'm sure others would be interested too.  Thanks.

One thing I should point out for anyone considering the Piper 3777 cam, is that it will require twin side-draught carbs. possibly twin 45's, as it is the most potent of the road cams made for this engine, having 8.3mm cam lift, which is much more than the 'S' cam (only 7.4mm cam lift) and that meant you needed different valve springs because with that much lift the original springs would coil bind.  Yes there were some racing engines, claimed to get around 184 horse power, but they would have been very costly and required lots of other things too, including such things as the special sodium filled valves, and they were not known for their reliability in racing either.

So if your Murena 2.2 only has the original single twin-venturi down-draught carburettor, whether the Solex 34 CICF or replaced with a Weber 34 DMTR, the cost of fitting a Piper cam will not be just the cost of the cam and valve springs, but also the twin side-draught carbs., a suitable air box, special inlet manifold, and the throttle linkage which is different, plus the setting up on a rolling road to get the carbs. correct for this cam.  And if the engine hasn't been overhauled recently, you need to think about the wear in the engine first, as you should never try to tune a worn engine.  So the real cost of fitting a Piper cam could be far more than just the price of the cam.

The first engine using the new Piper cam has been running well for a while using twin 45 carbs. but now we have another one running although this one has twin 40 side-draught carbs. and that is also going well*, but it has not been set up on a rolling road yet to see what it can give once it has the optimum settings, or how it will compare with the one using the twin 45s, since it was first being run in, before putting it on a rolling road.

If you are actually rebuilding a 2.2 at present, then that could well be the time to do this sort of upgrade, but also bear in mind that many of these things like the original air box, inlet manifold and throttle linkage have not been available for a long time.

*2024 Update: the second Murena with the Piper cam has been running a while now and since it has run-in nicely, it has been run to the top end rpm and really does 'fly'.  It will easily pull to the redline (and beyond if you are not careful) and is certainly not held back by using twin 40's rather than having twin 45's.  It will be interesting to see how much power it is providing once it has been on a rolling road.

Roy
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 09:57:31 am by roy4matra » Logged

Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2023, 06:53:47 pm »

I'm interested, Roy, for my next engine build, a complete rebuild from ground up. My long(er) term plan.
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1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142 (under restoration)
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah
2024 VW id.buzz Pro

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
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