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Author Topic: Getting ready for the road again  (Read 8110 times)
TELBOY
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« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2019, 06:30:06 pm »

Your drawing shows the pump drawing water from the radiator, and flowing to the engine. I would have it the same way so it pulls water through the radiator. Do you mean the pumps were working against each other?
Regardless still think your a genius!
P.S STOP SCRATCHING YOUR NEW PAINTWORK!!!!!
LOL
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2019, 07:17:06 am »

Your drawing shows the pump drawing water from the radiator, and flowing to the engine. I would have it the same way so it pulls water through the radiator. Do you mean the pumps were working against each other?
Regardless still think your a genius!
P.S STOP SCRATCHING YOUR NEW PAINTWORK!!!!!
LOL

Exactly they would have worked against each other, it would have been a mess! Shocked

I didn't feel very bright yesterday trying out different combinations of hoses and pump positons, trying to wrap my head around how it would fit in the strange space between the radiator and the battery tub - it looks so simple when you see the solution, but getting to that point involves trying out different things until it fits. Including taking the tub in and out. SORRY! I SHALL NOT AGAIN SCRATCH MY NEW PAINTWORK !!!

The Zinga is very porous on the surface, but this is because unlike real paint, it works from the underside chemically reacting directly with the metal underneath. So scratches are only cosmetic. C'est génial! Cheesy
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
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« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2019, 02:19:19 pm »

that's an excellent mod Anders and its great lookin at how the cars progressing.Do you know the part no.of the pump Huh Im already looking forward to the next instalment  Cheesy Cheesy

Thanks! Two £'s Huh

The pump is the EWP80 https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/electric-water-pump-only-80-lmin

Brilliant.  You are obviously much more qualified than myself so excuse my ignorance.  Does.the flow rate of the pump have to match that of the waterpump?  Would it create a problem if it doesnt.

I've spent too much time thinking about this, but now that you ask me and I went back to look at my old notes, I realize I've made a serious mistake! Shocked

But... Both pumps allows water to flow relatively freely through them, so the flow rate will be dictated by the strongest pump minus the friction in the system. I will have to adjust the pump controlling electric thermo-switch so that the electric pump does not kick in until the engine thermostat is open - otherwise the electric pump will work against it. The electric pump is in the radiator circuit, whereas the original mechanical is on the engine circulating the coolant through the auxillary circuit including the heater matrix. The drawing here , which I made years ago, shows the principle.

The mistake is that I've fitted the pump the wrong way - it's pushing water into the radiator instead of into the engine...  that will be next installment, I guess! Cheesy
haha sorry Anders I dont know how the hell the £ coins ended up on there.i was asking my wife to show me how to post pics on the site and was reading your post when she showed me lol
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 05:23:07 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2019, 01:02:40 pm »

Back from NYC, almost recovered from jetlag and lack of sleep (busy, but very good trip!), I've now finally cleaned this iiriplaceable and valuable glass fibre panel, the one that carries the prep-142 sticker Smiley

Still some work to be done derusting various brackets and cleaning and painting the headlight lifting bar and refitting it, but it feels good getting back to work Smiley
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
roy4matra
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« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2019, 01:49:11 pm »

Your drawing shows the pump drawing water from the radiator, and flowing to the engine. I would have it the same way so it pulls water through the radiator. Do you mean the pumps were working against each other?

Exactly they would have worked against each other, it would have been a mess! Shocked


Hello Anders,

I was talking to a company a while back, that specialises in electric water pumps on cars, and asked about how the system copes with the thermostat when not open or 'fighting' against the standard water pump, and this was their answer:

Your remove the thermostat and can throw it away!  You also remove the impeller from the original water pump because it is no longer required.*  Their system admittedly has their own electric water pump controller and coolant temperature sensor, but it works like this - since the coolant is no longer made to flow by the standard water pump that acts like the thermostat for fast warm up, and their water pump runs for a few seconds every say 30 seconds just to move the coolant slightly.  It monitors the coolant temperature as it is increasing and the pump run time increases whilst the time between runs decreases until the engine is fully up to temperature.

Now if the car is standing still or going very slowly, the pump will run sufficiently to keep the engine at the correct temperature, but once on the move and the air flow through the radiator is adequate the pump operation will drop to a level that is enough to circulate the coolant without over cooling it, yet irrespective of engine revs.

As you know, a normal water pump rotates relative to engine speed so it is turning slowly at idle just when you need it to be higher if standing in traffic, yet it will be turning faster than required at higher revs on the open road, when that level of circulation is not required, which is when the thermostat closes down to restrict the flow if necessary.  So an electric pump is better as it can deliver more when required at low engine revs and less when not required at high revs.  The reduction of the water pump load at speed should also release a little more power! Smiley

*One thing I said earlier is not true though.  If you remove the impeller from our water pump as they state, then there is nothing pressing against the original seal to keep it in place and prevent a coolant leak.  Also with no real coolant circulation in the engine whilst cold, the internal heater would be slow to provide any heat.  This latter problem is one addressed to some extent by the electric water pump running intermittently during the warm up phase.  If it is still insufficient, then they do a small additional pump for just the heater.  However, with regard to the impeller, if you use one of the new water pump kits that Simon Auto can supply, it should be possible to remove it, because the impeller is no longer needed to press against the seal.  His seal kits contain a fixed carbon seal but have a rotating ceramic seal that rubs against it. (that ceramic seal is a tight fit on the shaft, which allows the standard impeller to be removed and left out)  The ceramic/carbon seal is better anyway so it is a win/win situation.

As I have a couple of those pumps with the incorrect curved vane impellers which are useless, I was going to try one of these electric water pump kits on an engine to see just how they would work.  I once looked at the possibility of fitting a VW VR6 engine in the Murena and found that that engine has an electric coolant pump, which is what got me started at looking at this method of cooling!

Roy
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 02:17:23 pm by roy4matra » Logged

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« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2019, 07:25:12 am »

Thanks a lot, Roy for your lengthy answer Smiley

I was talking to a company a while back, that specialises in electric water pumps on cars, and asked about how the system copes with the thermostat when not open or 'fighting' against the standard water pump, and this was their answer:

The answer sounds like what I've read Davies Craig say back when I read about their pumps: Remove the thermostat and mechanical pump and install the electric pump in the lower radiator hose, plus an additional much smaller pump to drive the heater matrix, and a digital controller to ensure the speed of the large water pump is regulated to keep the engine temperature constant. Hans Mølbjerg has done that on his 505 turbo converted Murena, and it works well, he says. I haven't seen his installation, but we talked about it on the way to Le Mans this year, and his car is running well and stable. I think he has fitted a larger pump than the one I'm working with, though, but not sure. Davies Craig has different models of different size.

So why do I still want to keep the thermostat and old mechanical water pump in the system?

Well, this is because I'm a careful person, I think. I too found myself fascinated with the idea of the electric water pump, but I didn't want to change the system fundamentally. Keeping the mechanical pump in the system ensures nothing goes fundamentally wrong, and also removes the need for the supplementary pump for the heater matrix. I'm trying an iterative approach where the electric pump will initially be running only as a booster pump (and right now, since I'm missing a straight connector to it, it's not going in the car). Later, I may go all electric, if it works. Or go back to the mechanical system if it doesn't improve anything.

Using the pump as a booster is not against the advice from Davies Craig. They do support fitting the pump as a booster pump using a mechanical thermostat adjusted to only enable the pump when the temperature advances above the thermostat opening temperature. See the picture below, which was taken already in 2008 - yes, I've been working on this for more than 10 years now Smiley

I'll try to get Hans to post some pictures of his installation and notes about his experiences. What you and I have researched and he has implemented, *is* interesting in several ways!

Best,
Anders
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #81 on: July 13, 2019, 08:55:02 am »

Roy, almost immediately after having posted my reply to you, I started doubting my doubt... why not just replace the mechanical pump now? What am I afraid of?

As you point out, it will be the better solution than just boosting, for all the reasons you say, like being able to remove the thermostat, and simplifying things = less possibility for error.

The only thing I need is the straight connector, the supplementary pump for the heater matrix, and figure out a way to control that. Jesper might be able to help me close off an old defective pump (I think I have one somewhere, and he has one).Food for thought there... I appreciate the inspiration! Smiley

Lennart and Jesper popped by yesterday, by the way Smiley



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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2019, 08:25:14 am »

Headlight lifting mechanism is now refitted with new silicone vacuum hoses and the repaired vacuum actuator. Coolant hoses are checked and tightened (still without electric pump). Tub and fenders are back in place (not yet riveted, only held together using some 5 mm bolts). Wiring is refitted, and battery...

Next step is to push the car out of the garage, refill cooling system, and start her up, checking that everything is water and air proof, and that the vacuum actuator works as it should after my repair.

Also, I'll paint and fit the new pieces of protective metal around the radiator after that then, and fit the cable for the headlight emergency lift, tacho cable and new protective grommets, heater fan, and a few other things. After that I will be putting her back into the garage, now with the rear facing out, and start working on the rear end of the chassis again. Eventually that involves taking the engine out to do a small job on it, including converting it to an electric water pump (I think).

Oh yes, if you wonder why the chassis looks stained it's because of the linseed oil spray I'm using for corrosion protection inside the beams. It "runs" everywhere, including out of all holes (I find that fascinating).

/Anders
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 08:32:00 am by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
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« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2019, 03:19:47 pm »

Headlight lifting mechanism works now (click the image to see the video on Flickr or click this link https://flic.kr/p/2gzTuP6):



Also, the coolant circuit is replenished with all air removed.

I ran into two minor issues:
  • I had interchanged the vacuum hoses for the actuator, so it lowered the headlights when they were supposed to be lifted and vice versa.
  • There was a small leak by the fan thermostat, and it had to be tightened to seal properly

Apart from that, things worked well Cheesy

There seems to be a minor leak in the vacuum system as it looses vacuum after 30 seconds or so - it used to be able to hold for almost half an hour. Also, I didn't run the engine long enough to see if the the fan would kick in, so I have to double check that, plus connect the override switch properly.

But she is now reversed with the rear facing out. It's time to open a new chapter!  Cool

Updated with picture below

« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 11:08:15 am by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
TELBOY
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« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2019, 09:19:05 pm »

looking great!!!!!
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2019, 10:07:36 pm »

looking great!!!!!

Thanks!
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
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roy4matra
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« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2019, 07:46:41 pm »

Headlight lifting mechanism works now (click the image to see the video on Flickr):



There seems to be a minor leak in the vacuum system as it looses vacuum after 30 seconds or so - it used to be able to hold for almost half an hour.



Can I correct you here, and for others reading this as well.  That is not a minor leak if it looses vacuum after only approx. 30 seconds; and if it originally only lasted half an hour that is also unacceptable!

I've said this before but I'll say it again now - the vacuum system should hold for several days at least or even for a week!  I know this partly because when I had my Murena new it would do this.  I could go to my car a week after the last time the engine had been run, yet the head lights would still come up if I switched them on.  That is proof that the system is air tight like it should be.

Anything less is allowing unmetered air into the engine and making it run weaker.  Since a weak mixture causes the engine chambers to run hotter, this needs to be stopped to help prevent cracks to the head.

Roy
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2019, 09:01:34 pm »

Headlight lifting mechanism works now (click the image to see the video on Flickr):



There seems to be a minor leak in the vacuum system as it looses vacuum after 30 seconds or so - it used to be able to hold for almost half an hour.

Can I correct you here, and for others reading this as well.  That is not a minor leak ...

You can indeed, thanks! What I meant, of course, was that it is minor enough for me to want to attend to other things and put the leak on the to-do list, and I frankly could'nt remember how long it lasted when it was air tight.
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« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2019, 09:56:44 pm »

Summer holidays are ending for me. I didn't have too specific plans about what I wanted to complete as I knew that time would be limited - after all, the family must be prioritized when they want to spend time with me Smiley

But below are some pictures of things I've done since last update:

  • First one showing the rear facing out now
  • The left side rear trailing arm has failed
  • I managed to break both bolts holfing the trailing arm to the chassis loose without cutting them
  • The exhaust is off (thanks to some very rusty bolts, that took some time!), and I have started cleaning the rear underbody of dust, rust, oil residue, and other unwanted substances to prepare for zinc treatment
  • The left hand hub nut is off
  • And the drive shaft is loose, so I'm ready to remove the trailing arm now to get access to the chassis where it is suspended which must be cleaned and zinc treated
  • Using a cutting wire for windscreens, I'm beginning the process of removing the right rear wing. The left will be more difficult as it is still the original glue
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 06:30:37 am by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
TELBOY
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« Reply #89 on: July 28, 2019, 10:34:07 am »

That is a big job. Probarbly the hardest thing I had to do. Took me 3 days to get each one off. They are so easily damaged. I found the hardest part was around the bottom of the window because of the metal plate that sits there. Good luck!
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