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Author Topic: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6  (Read 13101 times)
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2009, 10:48:02 pm »

Erh?? - Don't know! - Have to call my mechanic!
I send him the link, but havent talked with him... - Maybe? - Maybe not?!?!

He's probably on his way to Berlin Wink

It was quite a good offer, that gearbox.
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Trolkar
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2009, 11:37:48 am »

I notice the gearbox is gone now. Did you buy it? Smiley

Nope, but the car is going to Berlin for an overhauling in next month!
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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
renaultbiler
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 07:27:18 pm »

Any news yet ??
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Trolkar
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2010, 12:43:23 am »

Well, since no one really has experience with GSB (Getriebeservice Berlin) I’ll be answering myself – Sit back. It’s going to be a long story!

After some negotiations with my dealer, he agreed to pay for a gearbox overhaul and for the replacement, but I should drive the car to Berlin for the  replacement.

But since the car has been driving almost 225.000 km, I wanted a new converter installed while the gearbox was been replaced. So my cost was the trip, the hotels and a new convertor. But remember! – If you have a company related to “auto und autofahrad” it is possibly to buy the parts as “Nettoverkauf”.
That means, that the total “only” was:

Gearbox, incl. 1 year warranty   1595,00 EUR
Convertor    290,00 EUR
Replacement 375,00 EUR
A total of   2260 EUR equals to around 17.000 Dkr.

The trip to  Berlin was “okay” – I took the advantage to invite my mother to join me on the trip. – German is NOT my best, but my mother is a former teacher in German at the University. – But since grandma and daddy was going on a trip, my 4 years old daughter insisted on joining us. “Disney on DVD”, what  a great invention 
The car did managed to go all the way to Berlin, but the last 10 km, it was not possibly to hear anything in the car. The gearbox was almost “screaming in pain” – Parked at the hotel was a relief!

The next morning, we took the car 4 km to GSB. And when I first saw the place I almost cried. You wouldn’t believe a mess! Rusty cars all over the place, no lights, “greasy” people. No one, and I really mean no one would ever hand over their car to that firm… - If you are from Denmark.
But my mom told me, that the firm was located in the former “East Berlin”, and when looking at the other companies around it, perhaps it was just normal.

At 8 o clock, the firm was opening – But it was not until 9.20 there was some people we could talk to. – No one really knew that we was coming, but there was a shiny ZF gearbox with my name on it in the waiting room. – There was gearboxes ALL over the place!

No one really talked to us, and after I have talked to the foreman at 9.20 my mother started to talk German with them, and that really help! – Now they would also talk to us! – We where even invited to see the “garage” – And at that point I was really starting to get worried. The place was a big mess!! - But at the end of our walk thru the garage, I could see my Espace being lifted up in the air. (And there was small “blocks” under the lifting point. My mother told me later, that there was a man that was controlling the car for damage – They knew, that the car was made of “plastic”)

At the end of our trip, my Espace was being in god hands. – I knew that because on the other lifts there was 3 WV Sharan from ADAC, 1 Ferrari, 2 Porsche, 1 Audi A8 and 2 Mercedes. – Okay, if they can handle those cars, they could handle my Espace as well.

After the car was lifted up, they started to cool down the engine and gearbox with a fan.
The car would be done the following next afternoon…

Well, the rest of the day and the day after was mainly pleasure for my daughter, the zoo, Legoland and so one…

At the pickup time, the car was not yet finish. – It was driving on a “test field”, simulating engine braking, high mountains and many start / stops. – After that, the owner (we think) took the car for a test drive himself. When the test drive was finish we started on our way back home. – But I was told, that the gearbox was not ready for race. Please drive slowly the first 100 km. – Well, okay :-)

After driving out of Berlin in rush hour we finally hit the freeway. – But only at 100 km/t. – A stop for petrol was needed, since the firm has been used almost ¼ of a tank (!).

AND THEN – DISSASTER! – When slowly decelerating towards the exit a big “klonk” was head when the gearbox changed from 3 to 2 gear. – Everybody was completely silence in the car… But well. – It may be needed some “time on the road”. After refueling, it was time to hit the freeway… The car was very very slowly, and would not take the gas. – Because it was driving in 3. – And the “Error code” for gearbox error appears on the dashboard.

A call to GSB, and we was driving BACK to Berlin. – But this time, in rush hour and only with 3 gear. – That’s NOT funny in traffic jam, and going uphill.

When we arrived, there was 5 persons waiting for us. – They were all very sorry, and started to check the car right away. – After around 4-6 min. the car was going for a test drive… But it returned with “no head shaking mechanic”. – They kept on testing and test driving for almost 2 hours. We arrived back at about 20.30, and at 22.30 they gave up. – They needed to dissemble the gearbox, but it was too hot.

They must have seen my freaky eyes… Where to find a hotel a 23.00 in Berlin!?! – But there was no worry. They already has made arrangement at a hotel, and the owner (again we think) was driving us to the hotel, but only to  find out that is has closed the doors at 23.00. – At 24.00, the 3. Hotel was a success. The firm paid for our stay..

The next morning, they called and said that the car was finish, and they would come and get us. – But after waiting for about 7 hours, and have seen the Espace running in and out for several times there was bad news. – Still errors with the gearbox. – An another night in Berlin paid by GSB. – They was really furious about the car, but took very good care of us. They even had one of the wife’s to drop by with spaghetti for my daughter! – By the way, the dismantle and replace of the gearbox only takes 35 minutes (If you are 3 persons  - It was on an off MANY times that day!  )

At 14.00 the next day the car was going for a new road test, and it was first back a 15.15. Over 1 hour!
But the car was finish! – It seems, that there  was a small leak in a o-ring – Deep inside the gearbox… Causing the gearbox to lose pressure under high torque.
T
he gearbox was given another overhaul, and some parts was replaced with a slightly “stronger than normal – But not that strong!” as they said. Some gearboxes have weak parts, but the ZF 20 HP 4 is not a really strong gearbox, nor either a weak gearbox, but the used parts is in a “good strong/weak balance“, and therefore the gearbox is generally strong. – But it is not a Mercedes they said.

The main problem with the ZF 20 HP is heat, heat heat and slowly driving in the city. And of cause, towing is absolutely the sudden death because of the big  heat problem.

After driving for about 15.000 km with my new gearbox I am still very pleased.
It is not changing in the same way before the overhaul. It is really “fast to shift up” – When driving slow, 4. Gear is engaged almost at 52-55 km/t. – Before that only happens when driving well over 70 km/t. – The gearbox “is forcing” the engine to use more torque, instead of using high revs. – The shifts is very “smooth”, especially when warm.

 – However, there are still some issue that’s are annoying me. When driving in heavy traffic, the gearbox tends to be in either 1 or 2 gear for a longer period – Which is resulting in “high” revs. It also sometimes making a weird “downshift” at round-about”. – But it can sometimes still making a “klonk” sound when shifting down. – Don’t know if that’s normal, hoping to “test-drive” another Espace for a comparison.

All in all… A good experience with GSB, but only because we’re was on the site, and able to speak German. – Can’t imagine if the box was to be sent back  and forth…

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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 06:20:19 am »

Thanks for the excellent and detailed description of your experience with GSB. Germans are generally very helpful people, but do tend to be shy if you don't speak the language. It sounds like people you can depend on, despite your first impressions.

Too bad about the o-ring that failed on the trip home, but nice that they helped you out so well when it failed.

Comparing your description of your car with the way ours go, I'd say it's doing perfect now. No reason to worry. The box will stay in low gear long if you accelerate fast, especially if you hit the kick-down switch under the accelerator - that will force it into "fast mode" with lower gears and faster downshifts for at least some 30 seconds or so.

In Renaults version of the box, it's also programmed to downshift while breaking. It's a little annoying, and I don't know why they prefer it that way. Maybe as an autoamtic engine braking mode when mountain driving, but that's all I've been able to think of.

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2010, 08:26:09 am »

Thanks for your story Smiley

Refering to your recent misfire tread, the smallest misfire can easily affect the gearbox behaviour and the time for shifting of gears. On our Scenic it is a repeated problem with water getting under the coil on cylinder 4 (probably due to lack of engine cover) and even before i start to notice any misfire i can feel it coming on the gearbox. Drying up around the spark plug the gearbox is working smooth again, if i leave it the engine will eventually start to misfire heavily and the gearbox is behaving nuts.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
jack daniels
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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2010, 07:55:57 pm »


does the trans on the V6 espace have a water/oil heat exchanger or air cooling only?



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Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III  
2002   JE02   F4R  DP0   2.0L 16v auto
Trolkar
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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2010, 08:26:06 pm »


does the trans on the V6 espace have a water/oil heat exchanger or air cooling only?


Yes. The oil is "mixed" with the "coolant water".
That helps the oli to warm up faster, and keeps the oil "cold".

When the gearbox is fitted in a Mercedes Sprinter (Cargo/Van) the exchanger it is about 9 times bigger.

I'm thinking of installing an external cooler... - When driving around a "safaripark" (Givskud Løvepark) in the summer for about 1 hour, the oil is getting so warm, that heavy "smoke" can bee seen when trying to check the oillevel.

(The airintake has to be removed to be able to check the oillevel from top of the car)
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'99 Renault Grand Espace 3.0 V6-24v
'97 Mitsubishi Galant Wagon 2.5 V6-24v
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2010, 12:16:44 am »

When the gearbox is fitted in a Mercedes Sprinter (Cargo/Van) the exchanger it is about 9 times bigger.

Is it really... I didn't know that. Might explain why it has a reputation for excellent reliability in the Merc.

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
jack daniels
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Posts: 132



« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2010, 08:57:38 pm »

interesting limks regarding the 4HP20:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24266779/Autobox-Zf4-Hp20-Training
http://www.meurosport.com/ZF_Transmission_Fluid.php

I have a question for renaultbiler:
after you drained and flushed the transmission in the megane 3 times, did you happen to give it a road test prior to reseting the oil wear/age counter?     

was there any noticeable difference in shifting after reseting the counter?     





« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 10:53:09 pm by jack daniels » Logged

Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III  
2002   JE02   F4R  DP0   2.0L 16v auto
renaultbiler
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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2010, 02:14:58 pm »

I reset if after the last refill, inbetween drain and refills i drove it with old index but it was only about 60*c temperature in it so i would not be able to determine anything regarding this on these short trips for a few 100 meters.

Renault document says to reset index even after only draining sump and refilling. You can also write your own index, say the current index is 66000 you can write 50% = 33000 as i would expect this to set back the electronics to 50% of current oil mileage. I doubt it makes any big difference though.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
jack daniels
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Posts: 132



« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2010, 04:21:40 pm »

does the index value autually affect the gear shifting, or the engagement / disengegement of the clutches?

or is the index purely just to remind us when the oil is ready for changing.
I recall from somewhere that number of minutes with an oil temp over 115 deg will be logged.
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Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III  
2002   JE02   F4R  DP0   2.0L 16v auto
renaultbiler
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2010, 05:40:00 pm »

The oil index does not engage with any warning visually or by diagnostics as far as i know, from what i understands it affects the electronic control of the gearbox by the means that the computer taking the oil age into consideration when commanding the gearbox.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
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