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Author Topic: Matra-Conversion  (Read 40207 times)
Theo
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I'm a llama!


« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2004, 07:55:54 pm »

hi ketko,
Didn't look at the forum lately.. but now I'm back.
Yesterday I had a look at the fueltank dimensions and I made a few sketches.. one very simple version can be made with 44.x liter volume with enough space for cooling / flow radiator guidance through eg. bonnet; left/right side wheelarces.

bracket at the same place as where the plastic cover sits.. I can make picture withmockup piece and dimensions.. send me a direct email. position of brackets I can not yet make as the car is not yet level... horizontal..
Regards, Theo
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Baggyjoe
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2004, 11:29:56 pm »

Hi guys

Great to have found this Forum.  Thank you Lennart.

Also, really good to see you guys putting a decent engine in a Bagheera.  Most of the people in the Matra Enthusiasts Club UK where I am a member are also dyed in the wool conservatives who prefer everything to be original.

No harm in that, and I myself like cars to look stock on the outside, but have no objection to sensible and sensitive upgrades to the drivetrain.

Most of the discussion on engine transplants tend to revolve around what engine will mate with the original gearbox.  I prefer to change the whole power unit, gearbox included, and connect the drive shafts to the original wheels.  This obviously would involve the fabrication of new engine mounts, but you have to break eggs to eat omelette.

Most of you are contemplating the use of PSA engines, which has the advantage of staying within the group engineering umbrella. How about the complete transplant of a more modern Japanese powerplant? Grin  A number of possibilities come to mind, the sportier ones being the 4AGE 1.6 supercharged unit from Toyota circa '92 or the more modern 1.6 or 1.8 twin-cam vtecs from Honda.

What do you think?  Sacrilege? Shocked  Or the creation of a worthwhile wolf in sheep's clothing?

Baggyjoe
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78 Black & Green & Rust Bagheera X
Theo
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I'm a llama!


« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2004, 05:25:18 pm »

I wouldn't worry about the driveshafts.. if a combination of two axles is need then so be it.. or let them special made in worst case.. the rest will bring lots of extra problems once that is settled the shafts are no worry at all.

Room for new powerplant !! main item to look for.  Roll Eyes
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ketko
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2004, 08:29:40 pm »

...to help you make the drivetrain choise easy? :
Seek for drivetrains from front-wheel-drive cars that has a lightweight engine(alloy) which is known to be durable, and preferably with some tuning potential. You choose the power and volume from your needs (Ferrari says that a sportscar should have at least 200hp per 1000 kilogram....)

This engine should be mated with an alloy gearbox with gear-ratios suitable for the cars weight, wheel-sizes, the engines caracteristics and what you intend to use the car for (everyday or racing, maybe something in between?).

Now is the time to check if there is room for your choices, I measured the Murena 2.2 drivetrain, and it is about 102 cm measured lateral WITH NO EXTRA ROOM TO USE !! Then you have to consider engine mounts, tubing/piping, gearlever....

In my opinion there is a little too small room for a turbo in the engine bay(heat buildup), but on the other hand the turbo-way is the quickest way to get power IF you can handle the engine control unit, which should to be reprogrammed if you change anything from stock (exhaust pipes, for instance...)

..Many details to consider, my choice was the 405MI16 drivetrain with the XU9J4 - D6C (1.9litre 163hp) engine because it is light, durable, there is tuning parts available(intake, camshaft, exhaust, porting) and it comes with a gearbox that suit my needs...It has a Bosch EFI-system... AND it fits in a Murena.

On the minus-side :
It tilts backwards, the ideal would have been some forward tilt to help the weight distribution and to get most of the weight between the wheel axles.
It was hard to find (but I had some luck and found one with 126000km on the clock, the price was EUR1600 for a complete drivetrain with EFI and driveshafts, only missing fuel pump and TDC-sensor to get it going)
Expensive distributor cap, the price in Norway is about EUR100.


Don't let any of this restrict your choices, there are lots of drivetrains to consider, maybe you would like something from Alfa Romeo, VW/Audi, SAAB or Opel???All of these have been fitted in Murenas, and there are plenty of others waiting...

I'm sure that other users on this forum can give you more help in choosing the right drivetrain, after all, I have not installed mine yet...

Good luck, please keep on posting in this forum ! Smiley
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- Ketko, Norway :-)
Baggyjoe
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2004, 11:19:54 pm »

This forum software has some nice features, but I find the logging system of having the last post first, and going backways through the posts to find out what was said earlier in the thread to be counter-intuitive and confusing.

Chris seems to be the only one putting a foreign engine in a Bagheera.  Everybody else is talking Murena.  Compared to the Bagheera, the Murena conversion is easy.

There is not sufficient room in the engine compartment for a turbo[in either car], due to heat soakage.  My Murena, which would have had over 120hp, tended to suffer from heat in traffic when the car was not moving.  Engine bay heated up, bad supply of cold air for the intake.  Putting in a turbo engine without some form of forced ventilation would make this problem worse.

Sound common sense to look for a small fwd engine.  Better still, get an engine and gearbox combination, with Tiptronic gearbox. This will do away with the difficulty of running the gearchange linkage all over the universe to get the shift pattern correct in the cabin.  2.0 litre GPX from a Mitsubishi FTO should work nicely, over 200 hp, very narrow angle V6.  Might not even be too difficult to fabricate the exhaust pipes.

Should work OK in a Murena, not so sure it would work in a Bagheera.  However, the proper way to do it would be like Matra did with the U8. Lengthen the chassis, and make a bigger engine box. In fact, as you are building a sports car, it should not be out of the question to retain the original Bagheera wheelbase, but lengthen the engine compartment a cm or two back into the boot space.

Moving the tank forward is a good idea on paper.  However, please be careful to fit a racing spec tank in this case.  If the original tank is up front and gets a head on collision, it will go up in a fireball.  Not worth it to sacrifice safety for speed or convenience.

Joe Smiley

PS, Kris, if you are doing any changes on the Bagheera engine housing, it would be a good opportunity to cut the engine top frame off a Murena and weld it on.  Would give you a lot more access to your new engine. Wink
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78 Black & Green & Rust Bagheera X
Kris
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2004, 11:43:25 am »

hello,

i'm here agein. i've not been here for some months now, my studies and other things made me very occupied.

i'm not the only one to mount a foreign engine in the bagheera, by a peugeot-forum i got to know a guy from southern germany whos doing the same - his advantage: he's an engineer and has all possibilities to work out the special parts necessary for such a conversion. in fact, he monuted yet a peugeot BE-5-speed-gearbox into his matra rancho.

he will do all the prototype-hardware-parts, my part is to pick out the best peugeot parts and so i made comparing diagramms of gearbox ratios, looked out for gearboxes that go together with matra hydraulic clutch system (wich exists! - BE-box was mounted in horizon and other talbots), doing the electronical job, how to do mount either jetronic or motronic injection etc. including catalysator or not ...

our projects will take some long time but i think we'll arrive where we want to go.

greetz, kris
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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2005, 12:00:43 am »

i'm here agein.

Great to hear, I was getting concerned that you had disappeared completely

I would very much like to talk with you about XU9 JAZ motronic engines, as I am looking for a replacement for my XU9-JAK which
has suffered a failed crankshaft bearing. (repair or replace)

Regards

Lennart@matrasport.dk
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
valmet440
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2005, 06:26:41 pm »

Hi
I've finally found a Murena for sale in Sweden, and will check it out next weekend. Until then I'll begin dreaming about the future engine conversion....
Hope you don't mind me borrowing this thread for asking a couple of questions.

Like some of you I believe the sound from 6 cylinders is worth the extra weight (and conversion effort). However I cannot decide on which engine to choose.

I've seen that the Alfa V6 engine has been a popular choice, but I cannot help thinking the PRV6 would be more "right" for a Matra. However, being a 90 degree V6 it could be impossible to fit, depending on how it's packed. What are your thoughts on this?

Anyway, I do know the late PRV's (3,0 transversely mounted in XM and 605) were mated to the same ME-box as the XU10 in-line 4.... Does anyone know if this could ease the conversion?

Finally one last question - for me, choosing between the Alfa and PRV engines becomes a matter of choosing the strongest gearbox. Does anyone know how much torque the standard Alfa and Peugeot/Citroën gearboxes can take?

Thanks
/gustav
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Will Falconer
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2005, 12:48:21 am »



I've seen that the Alfa V6 engine has been a popular choice, but I cannot help thinking the PRV6 would be more "right" for a Matra. However, being a 90 degree V6 it could be impossible to fit, depending on how it's packed. What are your thoughts on this?

Having seen my Espace's 24v PRV engine stored in the back of the car while the front end was rebuilt I find it hard to  believe it would actually fit into a Murena, although a couple of prototype Murena PRV's were built shortly after Matra stopped building the car. I believe the reason they didn't reach production was because the Venturi and Alpine were already using the same engine and  that would be my question. Why not just buy an Alpine?

As far as I know only one Murena has been fitted with the Alfa engine. The owner asked me how to upgrade the brakes to cope with the weight. I could only suggest fitting a smaller engine. Grin

I don't think the gearbox is a big deal. In fitting XU9 engines to Murenas we just built composite driveshafts to match up. Presumably the Alfa gearbox is tough enough for the Alfa, the PSA gearboxes are certainly strong enough for their cars.
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valmet440
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2005, 12:08:15 pm »

Thanks for your answer.

Why not just buy an Alpine?

The A310 V6 is more expensive than the Murena. Main reason though is I like the Matra better!

Presumably the Alfa gearbox is tough enough for the Alfa, the PSA gearboxes are certainly strong enough for their cars.

The gearbox will cope with the standard torque, allright. However I'm dreaming of tuning the engine, and than reliability could become an issue. From what I've heard the ME5 boxes are quite strong (copes with tuned 405 T16 for example). Anyone know what the Alfa box can handle?


As far as I know only one Murena has been fitted with the Alfa engine. The owner asked me how to upgrade the brakes to cope with the weight. I could only suggest fitting a smaller engine. Grin

I agree the bigger engine will probably have a negative effect on handling. I'm willing to sacrifice this just to get the "right" sound (for track days I'll use my old Formula Vee anyway).

The Alfa conversions I've seen are
* Jos Evers http://www.squadra-tuning.com/Specials/Murena_V6.htm
* Norwegian http://home.online.no/~utinglum/matramurenav6.cfm
* The company CarJoy http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/Alfa-V6/index.html

There even seems to be a conversion "kit" available from CarJoy.

I havn't heard of any PRV conversion, though. Probably because of the space problem you're mentioning. Still it would be interesting to know if the PRV fits the Murena gearbox. Or if the newer Citroën XM ME5T boxes are similar to the original gearbox.
* Same inner joint
* Same gear changing levers
* Same mounting to chassis
* Same bolt pattern to engine
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valmet440
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2005, 09:06:09 pm »


Having seen my Espace's 24v PRV engine stored in the back of the car while the front end was rebuilt I find it hard to  believe it would actually fit into a Murena

Will, could you by any chance compare the Murena gearbox with the one from the Espace. Do they have any similarities (if they are both manual)?
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Will Falconer
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2005, 07:50:28 am »


Having seen my Espace's 24v PRV engine stored in the back of the car while the front end was rebuilt I find it hard to  believe it would actually fit into a Murena

Will, could you by any chance compare the Murena gearbox with the one from the Espace. Do they have any similarities (if they are both manual)?

My Espace is a '99 (transverse engine) and is automatic. I think all the 97> V6's are auto.

I wouldn't recommend using the Murena gearbox wth a V6, it would definitely be a weakness.
 
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2005, 10:22:25 pm »

There are two variants of PRV V6's: The old 90 degrees 12 valve V6 and the new (in Espace post 1998) 60 degrees 24 valve V6.

Traversely mounted in Espace, they are only available with automatic gearboxes.

Old PRV's pre 1996 were lontidudally mounted in Renaults and with the traditional long Renault gearbox. Maybe if you remove the middle seat and let the engine potrude into the cockpit is it possible to mount it the other way round... just a silly idea... Cheesy

Another option would be to find a Citroen XM. See this cut-away:

http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/xm/images/XM-V6-Cutaway-50%25.jpg
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
jos
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« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2005, 10:38:39 am »

Good morning,

Well, I am the guy driving the Murena V6 as mentioned in Will's post below. He recommended me to fit a smaller engine Wink
Of course I continued my search for people who were willing to offer me some help. Well, now my car is equipped with 300mm discs and 4 pot callipers front. The braking and equally important, fading and feeling have been improved a lot. Later I will install a Willwood brake pressure adjuster and this winter an upgrade for the rear is planned as well, alsmost sorted by a friend of mine Grin The car's weight is 1050Kg  Smiley
The Alfa gearbox can easily handle the power ( in my case 232Hp on the dyno ).
In case you are seriously considering an Alfa conversion the easiest way is to contact Ruud ( Carjoy ) to get to know what is required. Judging from that you can consider what to to / search / buy yourself. It is more or less a kit now, since at least 5 are built and more to come. Also a gastank is available.

I can really recommend the Alfa conversion. The car is a blast to drive, especially if you change the suspension setup ( GAZ... ).The handling is very good and of course an Alfa V6 engine really sounds awfully good.. Cool Cool Cool

Well this is how the car looks now.

I am planning to have an outlet manifold custom made.

With kind regards,
Jos





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jos
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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2005, 10:39:13 am »

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