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Author Topic: Serious challenges.  (Read 20142 times)
Oetker
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 12:54:37 pm »

Oh, and if you need 2nd gear synchro.
This one from Fiat will do the trick.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321289259110?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Is Fiat item number 9554172288
Witout the last two 8s you get Citroen number 95541722
That leads to Peugeot number 2324.03 that also leads to Matra number 7550943700.
I got the other one from this seller an it's OK
There is a possabillity that Talbot express also has the same box or at last more or less same parts.
I knew it, my Murena shifts like a lorry Cool

Herman


« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 12:57:02 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2014, 01:19:37 pm »

Normaly I place the box on the ground against the wall.
I sit downon the ground  and press the box with my 2 feets against the wall
Then I take my torque wrench an apply strong force.
It will come loose if youre strong enough.
I look up the spanner (it's somewhere in the mess of parts) and will do so.
Bit patience, I have to find it first.

Regards, Herman

Success.  Grin
I clamped the box to the workbench. Punched the dents out in the lock-nut. Used a socket and extended the handle with a large wrench. Applied force  Cheesy and they came free.
It was harder to get the allen screws out of the plate that holds the bearings in place. Nearly broke the allen wrench, but they came loose.
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Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 01:22:05 pm »

Oh, and if you need 2nd gear synchro.
This one from Fiat will do the trick.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321289259110?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Is Fiat item number 9554172288
Witout the last two 8s you get Citroen number 95541722
That leads to Peugeot number 2324.03 that also leads to Matra number 7550943700.
I got the other one from this seller an it's OK
There is a possabillity that Talbot express also has the same box or at last more or less same parts.
I knew it, my Murena shifts like a lorry Cool

Herman



That is super.  Smiley
Are you saying that it is not the cone on the gear that is the problem, but the synchro ring?
Will this ring then fit correctly on my gear? Huh

In my original post here: http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1959.0.html one of your last entries say that the new ring will not fit the old gear. Is the ring you talk about above a size that fits the old gear?

By the way! I also discovered that I made a disassembly document  back then. But I had forgotten about it. I include it here again if anyone should need it:
(just wish I had included the figure 5 showing "bolt A". Jan has my manual, so I don't know which one I referred to.)  Tongue
Update! Figured that out. It is the bolt that holds the 5./R. shifter block to the shaft.

UPDATE!
Got the second gear and synchro out  and cleaned up. It is GOOD. Grin Grin Grin The clearance is 0.95 mm.
My old synchro ring just falls flat against the gear with some lateral movement to spare.
I was going to use this gear in my box, but it may not be necessary as this ring seems to be of the proper size.
If I was to use this gear I have some concern about pitted rust on the walls of two adjacent teeth. (See photo. Water has somehow gotten into the box while it was sitting around) Wonder if that would be a problem? I have filed high spots off, so it should run smooth, but what about wear? Huh
the first gear is in worse condition and the fork has lots of surface rust. This box may be just for spares as is. Angry
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 04:48:16 pm by Jon Weywadt » Logged

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Oetker
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2014, 03:20:35 pm »

You have to measure.
Put the ring on the 2nd gear and if it is 0.8mm or better it will be correct.
I found that if it is lower then that the gear has the wrong angle or the gear is warned out.

Herman
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 03:36:53 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Oetker
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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2014, 03:26:27 pm »

Quote
I clamped the box to the workbench. Punched the dents out in the lock-nut. Used a socket and extended the handle with a large wrench. Applied force   and they came free.
It was harder to get the allen screws out of the plate that holds the bearings in place. Nearly broke the allen wrench, but they came loose.

Some time ago I did it that way to.
Now I have a new workbench because I pulled a little to hard Sad

The backplate you don't have to get off.
You can seperate the box without removing the plate.
Only when you have to replace the bearing it is needed.
Then you have to heat the bolts up because they are very hard to get of.

Herman
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 03:45:27 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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Posts: 956



« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2014, 04:28:16 pm »

Quote
I clamped the box to the workbench. Punched the dents out in the lock-nut. Used a socket and extended the handle with a large wrench. Applied force   and they came free.
It was harder to get the allen screws out of the plate that holds the bearings in place. Nearly broke the allen wrench, but they came loose.

Some time ago I did it that way to.
Now I have a new workbench because I pulled a little to hard Sad

The backplate you don't have to get off.
You can seperate the box without removing the plate.
Only when you have to replace the bearing it is needed.
Then you have to heat the bolts up because they are very hard to get of.

Herman

My bench is anchored to brick behind the gypsum wall. Wink
Didn't know about the end-plate. Now it is off.

I updated my post above with photos of the gear.

/Jon
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Oetker
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2014, 04:59:33 pm »

Have no idea what the outcome will be concerning the rust on the gears.
Probably some extra noise, who cares?
You don't have much choices I think
If it is not to bad I would use it.
I have some parts if needed, but maybe better use this box for spares.

Herman
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 05:12:49 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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Posts: 956



« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2014, 05:25:23 pm »

Does anyone know what the letters/numbers on the bell housing means? I am particularly interested in finding out if it was fitted on a 2.2 or 1.6.

UPDATE!! Actually talked about this box four years ago and Roy wrote what he knew. In that post I referred to an AC506 marking on the box. I don't see that here

Best I can say from the photos below
On one side it says: Y20 AS 5U3C
On the other side: 1 95563397 Z

« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 12:19:58 am by Jon Weywadt » Logged

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Oetker
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2014, 06:53:12 pm »

Frankly speaking, I don't know.
I think it was made with a random generator making it look interesting Cheesy
Matra in fact only glued stickers near the engine mount of the gearbox with the type of box.

After a few months outside in the rain the stickers were gone so nobody knows what gearbox they have without opening it.
During the manufacturing life the box was updated several times.
The French however didn't walk to far in the store room, so it's possible you have a S with one of the first boxes.
It's easy to see if you have a 2,2 box.
The bellhousing of a 1.6 is much smaller.
Also the prise axle of a 2.2 is thicker
The one on youre pics is 2.2.
I can see that on the mounting point of the slave clutch cilinder.
Also the dif gear is different.
a Prise axle of a 1.6 doesn't fit in a 2.2

herman
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 07:09:41 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2014, 12:26:07 am »

Frankly speaking, I don't know.
I think it was made with a random generator making it look interesting Cheesy
Matra in fact only glued stickers near the engine mount of the gearbox with the type of box.

After a few months outside in the rain the stickers were gone so nobody knows what gearbox they have without opening it.
During the manufacturing life the box was updated several times.
The French however didn't walk to far in the store room, so it's possible you have a S with one of the first boxes.
It's easy to see if you have a 2,2 box.
The bellhousing of a 1.6 is much smaller.
Also the prise axle of a 2.2 is thicker
The one on youre pics is 2.2.
I can see that on the mounting point of the slave clutch cilinder.
Also the dif gear is different.
a Prise axle of a 1.6 doesn't fit in a 2.2

herman
Hi Herman.

Thanks for the clarification. I have never seen a 1.6 Gear box, so I did not know about the bell housing difference. This box is identical looking to the one in my 2.2.

Regards.
Jon
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roy4matra
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2014, 10:52:05 am »

Thanks for the info and warnings.
I did push the screw in as hard as I could, but it turned freely apparently not engaging anything. However, it was possible to get the sprocket wheel off the cam and free of the chain, so the chain could not have been under tension. However, afterwards I noticed that the whole tension mechanism was loose and could pivot. It does not seem right.

It is possible to get the chain off, Jon, even with the tensioner applied so that is not a reason to say it was not correct.  It would also depend on how well and how close the guides were fitted.  The last engine I overhauled for someone, the guides were so far out of place that the chain was loose even with the tensioner applied!

Suppose that after the last time your engine tensioner was fitted, the screw was broken, it could be why it just turned but did nothing.  I would like to see all the parts of the tensioner (stripped) in detail, spread out, and possibly from a few angles, and then maybe I can see if it is any good - you may be able to rebuild it correctly and re-use it.  Or you could send it to me and I will check and rebuild it if it is any good.

Quote
Just in case I got a new tensioner from Simon and it has a different release mechanism. It has a clasp in the side of the mechanism, which releases the spring when turned and push the tensioner forward.
I am curious how to do that once installed in the engine? I do not recall a hole on the side like the one on the front where once the plug is removed you can get to the screw. I included photos of the new tensioner.

That tensioner is no use Jon, in a Murena or Tagora or probably any engine unless it has an access hole on the front of the case, as you would have to have the timing case off to release or apply it!  The screw has to be accessible from the outside through the side hole provided by the plug.

Quote
With your warning about grinding the side of the gear or synchro ring I wonder what options I have. I already tried a new Synchro ring from Simon a few years ago and it lasted only 6 months. I need a ring that better fit the gear or a gear that fits the ring. But where can I get that?

The problem is the synchro cone and cone on the gear do not match, in size or angle.  So when you fit a new one, it only just touches and as soon as it has bedded in, it will not work.  The synchro cones you have, both old and new are not wasted as they are not really worn (look at the 'teeth' - a worn synchro cone has no teeth and is worn smooth) and can be re-used but you need a gear with the correct cone angle on the side of it.  So either you have to get another correct gear, or adapt the one you have or possibly have a smaller cone made.  One possibility might be to have the gear cone increased in size using the metal spraying technique to add material and then re-machine it back to the correct size and shape, but this would be expensive assuming it was possible.  There is also the heat treatment aspect to be taken into account which may prevent this.  I have been out of engineering too long to know all the 'ins' and 'outs' and there may even be a different or better way to do it now.  You would need to speak to someone currently in engineering for better advice.  However, I feel the easier way is to try to find a correct gear - it is not the cone that is the problem, it is the gear.

Roy
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 10:59:29 am by roy4matra » Logged

roy4matra
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2014, 11:13:16 am »

Does anyone know what the letters/numbers on the bell housing means? I am particularly interested in finding out if it was fitted on a 2.2 or 1.6.

UPDATE!! Actually talked about this box four years ago and Roy wrote what he knew. In that post I referred to an AC506 marking on the box. I don't see that here

Best I can say from the photos below
On one side it says: Y20 AS 5U3C
On the other side: 1 95563397 Z


'506' was a 1.6 transaxle Jon so it is good it is not here!

That '95563397 Z' number cast in to the alloy looks like the Citroen number for this Matra casting.  It certainly follows their number pattern.

2.2 transaxles should be '510' or '2GE15' or '2GE17' but since the labels never stayed on long there is no way to find out what you have except by visually telling whether it is a 1.6 or 2.2 bell housing (which are quite different) and by the differences inside when you open them up!  Unsatisfactory but that is what we have.

Roy
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Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2014, 02:20:27 pm »

There should be 2 types of spanners but I only know this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30FxWH0nl3A
----
Herman

Hi Herman.
I hope you are online and can tell me what is the outside diameter, and length, of the spring in the spanner.
I have tried to measure from the video and guess 7 mm outside and about 40 mm long. Is that close?

I find it strange that I have no spring. As I wrote, the spanner did not pop out like on the video and I cannot find a spreing in the oil-pan. My conclusion is that it was not installed by a previous owner. Angry

Using a magnet on a telescope shaft I fished the spanner out and plan to install it and the spring again in the same manner. I am sure it can be done but I need a spring that is close to original.

Wish me luck. Grin
/Jon
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Oetker
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« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2014, 02:40:05 pm »

Just at home.
Been a bit busy the past few days.
This evening I have some time and will look into the things.
Don't worry about the spring.
If needed I have one or two avaiable.

Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 956



« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2014, 03:07:56 pm »

Just at home.
Been a bit busy the past few days.
This evening I have some time and will look into the things.
Don't worry about the spring.
If needed I have one or two avaiable.

Herman
Hi Herman.

That is outstanding. If you could spare a spring I would greatly appreciate it.v Just let me know how we arrange that.
Regzrds. Jon.
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