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Author Topic: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller - Solved  (Read 8557 times)
roy4matra
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2016, 08:12:37 am »

Goodmorning.

I can't measure anymore because the pump is sold but Simon provide pulleys for the waterpump, and they look the same as I have mounted.

No Herman the pulleys that Simon provide are the standard size (120mm dia.)  I know as I have bought at least one.

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Why provide seperate pulleys?

This is easy to answer.  The original pulleys were cast iron, and since they are a tight press fit on the shaft, when you attempt to press them off again to overhaul a pump, they can break.  Again I know as this has happened to me - cast iron is not as strong as steel.  That is the first reason for new standard ones.  The second reason is that Dolz used to provide two pumps for the Chrysler/Talbot OHC engine as fitted to the Chrysler 160/180/2-litre and 2.2-litre engines.  The Chrysler 180/2-litre/Talbot Tagora pump was part number T118 and came without a pulley as they used a flange on the shaft that the electric clutch coupled fan bolted on to. (that was also the reason for the small threaded lug on the casting - that was where the carbon contact was bolted)  The Murena version of the pump was part number T158 and had the small lug cut off since we have the front electric fan; and a 120mm pulley was fitted which was much closer to the body of the pump as required in this transverse mounted version of the engine.

Near the end of the production of these pumps, Dolz stopped providing the pulley already fitted on the pumps - I have had some of these pumps; so Simon had some steel pulleys made for us to fit on these pumps.  The pump came in the box shrink-wrapped with no pulley, and the Simon pulley was separate in the box ready to be press fitted on.  This also meant you did not have to try to remove the old pulley which could break anyway, and therefore the new pump was complete and could be fitted without any problems. (no one would be happy if they bought a pump and then found they could not fit and use it because there was no pulley or the old one broke trying to transfer it!)  



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Not very cheap €58.-

Maybe you don't like the price, but these are better quality than the cast iron ones and being machined from solid steel and will be more reliable especially if re-used a number of times on different pumps as they won't break when being pressed on and off the shafts.

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I must have another pump somewhere laying around but don't know if it's a Dolz.

If you have one of the small pulleys you can measure, that would be good, but don't worry about it Herman because I have used your photos and the relative sizes to work out that the smaller pulley must be about 100mm which is what I calculated you would need to get the extra rpm required.  Thanks.


One further point about Dolz and these pumps.  Someone at Dolz made a mistake and they now have the 2.2 listed as having the same pump as the 1.6 version!  So you will see they list the T116 pump (which is still available) for both 1.6 and 2.2 versions.  This is obviously wrong and I have written several times to point this out but they won't acknowledge my letters or correct their website or catalogue.  They list the T118 and T158 as no longer available, so unless we can find another source of these pumps, all we can do is overhaul them.  So please NEVER throw old ones away.

Also if anyone has any old Murena 2.2 water pumps they don't want please let me know as I can always use the parts.  Thanks.

Roy
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:18:01 am by roy4matra » Logged

Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2016, 04:32:32 pm »

Jesper and I have been using the Dolz T116 pumps for parts to renovate the original T158 pumps. Taking them apart and only using the shaft, bearings and seals, Jesper has renovated the T158. He uses the original cast iron impeller but have to mill off a few millimetres to allow room for the new, different seals from the T116. Also the pulley end of the shaft has to be cut about a centimeter shorter.
Not a difficult project and while I thought that my rebuilt pump had failed, it looks like the problem was the old hose leaking around the top of the pump.
Still looking for a replacement. May end up using two 90 degree pieces and a fitting to join them. That is, if there is room for that. It was a tight squeeze getting the hose off, disassembling only the thermostat housing, in order to get a pair of polygraph pliers on the spring-loaded hose clip.
   
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roy4matra
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2016, 01:58:44 am »

I'll let you know the results once I have fitted it.

Solved.  The car is now working correctly again, so it was the alloy curved vane impeller that was causing the problem.

The pump I took off the car had a standard size pulley but it had that inefficient alloy impeller and it was simply not circulating the coolant at engine idle speed.  Bring the engine revs up to about 1,500 rpm and it would start circulating and then the radiator fan switch would cut-in as the hot coolant was finally able to reach the radiator and switch, and then it could start to cool, but as soon as you let the engine drop back to a normal idle the circulation would stop, and the engine would over-heat if you left it too long.

If it had been fitted with that smaller pulley, the coolant pump would have been spinning fast enough at engine idle to start the circulation BUT the problem might then be at the top end, say with the engine reaching 6,000 rpm, because the pump would be at 8,280 rpm!  With a standard pulley and the engine at 6,000 rpm the pump would only be at 6,900 rpm.  At the very high revs it is possible you could start to get pump cavitation which would be bad.

I changed the alloy impeller for an original cast steel one with the flat vanes, and the pump now circulates the coolant at engine idle revs, and the cooling system is back to normal.

So if you have one of these pumps with the alloy curved vane impeller, but it has the standard 120 mm diameter pulley, then you will have problems, and the Murena will not cool whilst idling.  Any pump with the alloy impeller and a smaller 100 mm dia. pulley might be fine, at idle and low revs at least.  It might cause problems at high engine revs. as the pump may be over-speeding.

In my opinion these Murena 2.2 coolant pumps should only ever have the cast steel, flat vane impeller, like they did when the were first built; and you will have no trouble, as long as the rest of the cooling system is good of course. Smiley

Roy
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 02:07:05 am by roy4matra » Logged

Oetker
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2016, 05:32:34 am »

Good to know this.
I think there are more Murena's out there that suffer this problem.
Now finding this pulley is the new task or just a idea, cut a bit of the iron impeller (if possible) to make it fit with the other type seal.
This kind of faults can keep you busy.

Herman

« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:42:06 am by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
roy4matra
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« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2016, 10:41:22 am »

Good to know this.
I think there are more Murena's out there that suffer this problem.

I think you are right Herman, and now I can understand why some people consider the Murena cooling is poor when I know, as I have had my car from new, that if they are as originally designed, they are perfectly fine.

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Now finding this pulley is the new task...

Yes if the pump has an alloy impeller, it needs a 100 mmm diameter pulley and probably shorter vee-belt.

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... or just a idea, cut a bit of the iron impeller (if possible) to make it fit with the other type seal.

I'm already ahead of you there!  I have had 5 mm machined off the hubs of several old flat blade cast impellers (as this is how much deeper the new seal assembly in Simon' overhaul kits measures) and I've rebuilt several old pumps with the new the ceramic seal assembly.  This is in fact what I did with this problem Murena as it already had the ceramic seal with the alloy impeller.  So it now has the ceramic seal but with the flat blade cast impeller. (but that impeller came from another pump which I cannot now overhaul unless I can get another cast impeller)

I have one Murena 2.2 pump with a flat blade impeller that has the numbers 2R12602 cast into it.  If anyone has any of these or can find out where they came from, this would be useful to know, so I could obtain some more.

I can in future offer overhauled Murena 2.2 water pumps (on exchange provided they have the cast impeller) that are better than the original ones (and much cheaper than new pumps too).

For those that don't understand why the ceramic seal is superior, the original pump had the impeller hub rubbing directly against the sprung carbon seal, and over time this would wear and if the engine was not used regularly, the impeller would corrode and fail to seal.  In the new ceramic seal assembly, the stationary sprung carbon seal rubs against the rotating ceramic seal, wear is reduced and there can be no corrosion or deterioration of the seal joint.  Also since the impeller hub no longer has to mate against the seal, it wont wear and any sight corrosion here will have no effect of the water pump sealing.

Consequently even in a classic car that is left unused for long periods, the pump should last better.  Many old classics are these days being fitted with modified pumps with ceramic seals.  Now we can have these on the Murena too!

Roy
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 11:08:56 am by roy4matra » Logged

Oetker
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2016, 08:42:32 am »


The impeller has seven curved vanes but they are not the right shape so they can't fit closely to the casing.  The excess clearances between vanes and casing will result in a lack of pump efficiency.  All my water pumps have always been the cast metal straight blade ones
So has anyone else had experience of a Murena 2.2 fitted with the water pump that has the aluminium curved vane impeller, rather than the normal flat vane cast iron one?  If you have, have you noticed a problem with cooling whilst idling for a long period such as in heavy traffic?  Thanks.
Roy

To make it more complex Roll Eyes
You say it has 7 curved vanes but this alloy impeller has 8 and are not curved..



Regards Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
roy4matra
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 09:33:45 am »


The impeller has seven curved vanes but they are not the right shape so they can't fit closely to the casing.  The excess clearances between vanes and casing will result in a lack of pump efficiency.  All my water pumps have always been the cast metal straight blade ones
So has anyone else had experience of a Murena 2.2 fitted with the water pump that has the aluminium curved vane impeller, rather than the normal flat vane cast iron one?  If you have, have you noticed a problem with cooling whilst idling for a long period such as in heavy traffic?  Thanks.
Roy

To make it more complex Roll Eyes
You say it has 7 curved vanes but this alloy impeller has 8 and are not curved..

Regards Herman

Can you tell me the number cast in on the opposite side of that impeller, Herman.  Is it '2R12602' ?

The curved vane impeller I found fitted on two pumps including the one that wasn't circulating at idle, is '2B21302'.


I have since found another pump with an 8 straight vane impeller that may be the same as yours.

This is an original 6 straight vane impeller but with the hub machined down 5mm to allow it to be fitted with the new ceramic seal assembly.  And this works!  It circulates correctly at idle and keeps the engine temperature correct.


Roy
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 09:40:39 am by roy4matra » Logged

Oetker
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2016, 09:05:13 am »

Removed the paint from the allu impeller.
No number found.



I think docu is chaotic about this pump or not everone worked by the book.  Lips Sealed
Alu, steel, curved vanes, impellers with 6 or 8 vanes and so on.
In my experience (wich is hobby based) I saw some iron impellers come of the 2.2 with 6 vanes.
I think that is the original pump for Murena.
The turbo engine has steel with 8 vanes because of Turbo.

In the past we had the Chrysler 160/180 GT and 2 L with N9 engine.
I have the feeling the alu 6 curved vanes are meaned to be for that engine.
People do everything to save a buck so I presume the pumps from the N9 engine are used for Murena purpuses.
It's difficult to tell after so many years.
It's also possible that the cracked heads in this engine come from mounting wrong pumps but that is a gues from me.

Herman
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 09:15:41 am by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
roy4matra
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2016, 05:29:33 pm »

Removed the paint from the allu impeller.
No number found.

How odd.

Quote
I think docu is chaotic about this pump or not everone worked by the book.  Lips Sealed
Alu, steel, curved vanes, impellers with 6 or 8 vanes and so on.
In my experience (wich is hobby based) I saw some iron impellers come of the 2.2 with 6 vanes.
I think that is the original pump for Murena.

Yes I'm sure the 6 flat vaned steel impeller was the original for both Tagora and Murena 2.2, and in fact it was also used on the Chrysler 180/2-litre as I still have a new one of those in a box! (bought many years ago)

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The turbo engine has steel with 8 vanes because of Turbo.

Well I can show you the 505 turbo parts list and it does not have a different Peugeot-Talbot number for the water pump so I'm not sure that the 8 vaned impeller was only for that.

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In the past we had the Chrysler 160/180 GT and 2 L with N9 engine.
I have the feeling the alu 6 curved vanes are meaned to be for that engine.

No, not really as I have had many replacement pumps for those engines and used them on the Murena as they were all the same at that time - the casting was the same height on the original Chrysler 180/2-litre/Tagora which was why I used to buy them for the Murena.  All I had to do was swap the pulley from the old Murena pump as the Chrysler ones did not come with a pulley.  It was only late Tagora pumps where the casting was suddenly 5mm deeper and I can't figure out why when the early ones were fine.

Quote
It's also possible that the cracked heads in this engine come from mounting wrong pumps but that is a gues from me.
Herman

I would agree that is a possibility because if you mistakenly fitted one with the curved vane impeller and standard 120 mm diameter pulley, then in heavy traffic whilst idling, it could not cool the engine.

Here are photos of the two numbers cast into the two impellers I have recently found:
This is the 7 curved vane impeller that doesn't circulate at idle, on pumps dated December 1996.


This is the 8 flat vaned impeller on a new Dolz T158 pump (still in box unused) dated January 2004.


Roy
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 05:36:52 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2016, 10:47:07 pm »

I moved this post to my "Serious challenges - the sequel" post  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 05:47:37 pm by Jon Weywadt » Logged

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Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2016, 05:51:22 pm »

[quote author=Oetker link=topic=3091.msg23146#msg23146 date=1467528152
--
To make it more complex Roll Eyes
You say it has 7 curved vanes but this alloy impeller has 8 and are not curved..



Regards Herman
[/quote]
My original pump, and the spare pump, both have 6 vane cast iron impellers.
I see a Dolz ceramic seal in the photo. Check out my post on http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,2983.0.html, for Jespers and my experience with this seal. Shocked
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 12:26:15 pm by Jon Weywadt » Logged

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roy4matra
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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2017, 01:15:32 pm »

[quote author=Oetker link=topic=3091.msg23146#msg23146 date=1467528152
--
To make it more complex Roll Eyes
You say it has 7 curved vanes but this alloy impeller has 8 and are not curved..



Regards Herman

I have seen the metal 8-vane impellers but not the alloy one, however, as they are flat they should be O.K. but to be pedantic, they both have gaps between the vanes and the hub which at low revolutions will allow fluid to pass between them and not get pushed around so reducing the pumping effect at idle or very low revs.  The original 6-vane impellers had the vane go across right to the hub as you can see from my earlier photograph.

What we do know for certain is that the curved 7-vane impeller is no good and any pump fitted with it should not be used. (One exception may be if the pulley is smaller to spin the pump faster, but then it may over-speed at top engine revs and I still don't advise this anyway.)

Roy
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