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Author Topic: Master or Slave?  (Read 15172 times)
macaroni
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Murena and Multipla - I like it 3 abreast!


« on: August 30, 2007, 09:46:58 am »

Keep it clean guys, I am referring to my clutch cylinders, not some naughty act between consenting adults...

My brake/clutch fluid reservoir is emptying rather rapidily and having ruled out, for now, the braking system, I think it could be the clutch system with a leak.

The brakes feel fine, the pedal is firm and there is no sign of any leaking from the calipers. If it was leaking into the servo, there would be lots of smoke as the fluid is drawn into the inlet manifold, but there is none.
Also, the "front" reservoir goes down quickest and the clutch system draws from that.

So, everything points to the clutch system: which is it more likely to be, the master or slave cylinders?
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2007, 10:43:57 am »

Haha, I did raise an eyebrow.

It's your master, most likely.

I've been there. The carpet under the clutch pedal will be wetted with the fluid. The problem is that the front seal in the cylinder has been worn and can no longer keep the fluid in.

I managed to find a seal kit in Biltema, a nordic car parts outlet, but only after I bought myself a new cylinder, and I still have it lying unfitted on the old cylinder. It shouldn't be difficult to restore a worn cylinder, as long as it's only the rubber seals that are gone. It was on mine.

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
LarsB
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2007, 10:47:52 am »

Do you remember the biltema part number or which car it was supposed to work on?

Lars
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2007, 11:13:26 am »

Do you remember the biltema part number or which car it was supposed to work on?

As my wife can confirm that I have a memory like ... oh I forgot what it is!, anyway there's room for improvement - no I can't.

But I can look it up when I get home.

Meanwhile, here's a photo of the piston with the damaged seal (the rightmost one):
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
macaroni
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Murena and Multipla - I like it 3 abreast!


« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 01:20:44 pm »

Anyone know what other cars share the clutch slave and master with the Murena?
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2007, 02:54:14 pm »

Anyone know what other cars share the clutch slave and master with the Murena?

I'm afraid there aren't any... there are replacements for the 1.6 cylinders, but not the 2.2. Tagora had a cable clutch, i.e. no help either. The seal kit I found was for a similar sized Bendix brake cylinder for a Volvo, I think.
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
macaroni
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Murena and Multipla - I like it 3 abreast!


« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2007, 03:58:55 pm »

Oh dear. Are the 1.6 clutch cylinders different from the 2.2?
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krede
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2007, 04:19:20 pm »

I would never purchase such parts from "biltema".. as I find the quality of their stuff appalling.
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michaltalbot
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2007, 04:56:35 pm »

Tagora had a cable clutch, i.e. no help either.

No, Tagora has also the hydraulic clutch and the slave cylinder IS the same as on Murena. I am not sure about the master cylinder, but when I was looking for repair kit at 1997 for my Simca 1308 S, I finally found that these o-rings are the same as on rear brake cylinders (diameter 19mm)  Wink
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2007, 05:08:24 pm »

Tagora had a cable clutch, i.e. no help either.

No, Tagora has also the hydraulic clutch and the slave cylinder IS the same as on Murena. I am not sure about the master cylinder, but when I was looking for repair kit at 1997 for my Simca 1308 S, I finally found that these o-rings are the same as on rear brake cylinders (diameter 19mm)  Wink

Oh, well I learnt something new there!

Well if the slave is the same on the Tagora, then the master probably is too as the diameter of it makes the difference with regard to pedal movement.

Quote from: krede
I would never purchase such parts from "biltema".. as I find the quality of their stuff appalling.

No, of course you wouldn't Wink I don't agree with your view on their quality, however.

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
roy4matra
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2007, 07:14:26 pm »

Oh dear. Are the 1.6 clutch cylinders different from the 2.2?

Yes, the master cylinder bore size is different.  Slave cylinders are totally different.

Are you sure it is the master cylinder - is there fluid leaking onto the carpet under the pedal?  Or is it the slave cylinder?  If it is the slave cylinder, Bendix kits used to be available to repair those, assuming the bore is good.  Even if it is the slave, you can expect the master to go sometime soon as well, since you are now using a car that has had very little use over the previous 10 years.  This means various items will need replacing, such as the water pump, brake and clutch system parts, as all these seals will probably fail - I have seen it so many times.  So watch things carefully.  You don't want to have the engine damaged because the water pump failed and you didn't spot it soon enough.

Manufacturers no longer wish to supply repair kits for brake master cylinders, mainly owing to liability laws where they can be held responsible even though they did not carry out the work!  Stupid I know, but that is how bad our legislation is getting.  Since the bore size of the clutch master cylinder is the same as the brake master cylinder, they believe if they offered a clutch master cylinder kit, people would use them to repair the brake master cylinders.  The 1.6 clutch master cylinder is smaller than the brake master cylinder, so a repair kit was available...

Roy
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 07:27:29 pm by roy4matra » Logged

krede
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2007, 08:51:45 pm »

Quote
I don't agree with your view on their quality, however.

Have it your way then.. but don't say I didn't warn you!..In my experience the parts you buy at Biltema,t-Hansen,Hoyer etc will get you through the MOT (if you are lucky).. but that's about it.
Especially ball joints should not be "bought cheap".     

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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2007, 09:23:31 pm »

Quote
I don't agree with your view on their quality, however.

Have it your way then.. but don't say I didn't warn you!..In my experience the parts you buy at Biltema,t-Hansen,Hoyer etc will get you through the MOT (if you are lucky).. but that's about it.
Especially ball joints should not be "bought cheap".     

I've bought mostly original spares for my Renault Espace's since that gives me both warranty and ensures that the thing works when fitted, and I agree Krede, that many cheap parts are plain rubbish. Biltema probably have some bad parts too, I just find that they are better than the two others you mention. It's a shop for Swedish auto nerds (no pun intended!). T-Hansen is for young guys driving a container for their cool stereo. The fact that Biltema *have* a repair kit for a brake master cylinder proves their attitude to me. As for joints and most other spares: Biltema can't help us anyway, so the discussion is rather abstract there.

Click the link below to see a photo of the parts kit. As you can see it also contains pieces for repairing a brake servo and other stuff in the same box. Part number is 66-742.

http://gallery.dinsen.net/v/Murena/technical/clutchmastercyl/DSC_0002.JPG
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
macaroni
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Murena and Multipla - I like it 3 abreast!


« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2007, 10:07:05 am »

Well, a quick feel of the carpet by the clutch pedal and the consequent covering of my hands in nasty oily stuff reveals that the problem is almost certainly the master cylinder.

So what are my options? Matramagic don't list a master cyl for a 2.2, just for a 1.6. I could try and source one from a Tagora, but do they fit any other Simca/Talbots - the Alpine (1301) for example?

I got a bit lost in the discussions about brake cylinder repair kits. Do the brake cylinder repair kits fit the clutch master cylinder?

I hear what you say Roy and I have had my fair share of things failing through lack of use; auxilliary belt, coil, ignition module and now my clutch master cylinder. The water pump was replaced just before I bought the car, so that should be OK, but it does beg the question why the auxilliary belt failed soon after I bought the car!!

Can anyone tell me the bore of the 2.2 master cylinder?

Anders, if I get stuck, can you get me a repair kit from Biltema? (sorry Krede!)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 10:17:00 am by macaroni » Logged
macaroni
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Murena and Multipla - I like it 3 abreast!


« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2007, 02:40:55 pm »

OK, I found somehere (www.simcatalbotclub.org) that can supply a Tagora 2.2 clutch master cylinder for a good price.

Can anyone confirm that this will fit a Murena 2.2?

Cheers,

Antony
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